Project Mall Runner

[ScottyB]

still getting used to seeing this hoss in our garage but it followed us home.  first new car we've ever bought.


2019 TRD Off Road, basically a no option car aside from a dealer-installed clearbra on the entire hood, mirrors, and door edges.  we fell into this one.  the plan was to replace the xterra within the year, but our local high-volume toyota dealer was running the national 0% APR deal until September and was locally pricing these final-year 'runners very aggressively to allocate space for the upcoming 2020 MY's which have some big changes.  when i say aggressive pricing, i mean after talking back and forth with the online sales manager they gave us $2000 under MSRP, and then when we got serious they came at us $1000 under invoice which came to $35.5.  MSRP is $39.5, we drove off paying $37.5 out the door including $2k GA sales tax and their $450 admin fee.  i feel...like it was pretty well bought.  no other dealer in the entire state could/would get within $1500 of invoice.  

the used market on these wasn't even an option.  'runners with 20k miles on them going for barely a few thousand less than new?  with a 1 year warranty?  forget that nonsense.  to get a body on frame SUV we looked at old GX470's and final year Xterra Pro4X's as well, but the GX's were just too told (and Jen doesn't identify as a lexus driver, ha) and the Xterra's weren't as good a buy as i thought they'd be with the Pro4X's holding value even with 40-50k miles.  Jeeps were out, FJ cruisers out, the old 4Runner V8's were too old too.

"the back windows go all the way down!  and i get my own vents!"  my son pointing out the truly important features


anyway, its an April '19 build date so it didn't sit long, and i think it went on one test drive before us (8 miles on the odo when we took it out).  i just don't think anybody wanted a cloth interior, dedicated off roader in black/black without skipping straight to the TRD Pro trim.  it was sitting and they needed it gone.  but for us, perfect.  we like simple, we like honest, and the T4R is very much the spiritual successor to the Xterra.  it has everything you want and nothing you don't, as long as you like a full frame SUV that gives up the bells and whistles to get you further off the pavement as a utilitarian device.  i think it will be the absolute perfect combo for pulling our modest teardrop trailer to parts unknown and taking us far from camp and back again.

back in black *cue guitar riff*.  that's how my wife rolls.  this'll be our 3rd black SUV in a row.  and guess who's always gonna be cleaning the damn thing?


so this thread is not, honestly, going to be much of a project.  we specifically opted for the Off Road package so that we wouldn't have to do much to it - just go out and get it dirty - and let the factory kit do its job.  i see some sliders, skidplates, a mild lift (one of the reasons we opted out of the KDSS suspension) and upgraded tires in the future, and we need some factory roof crossbars.  so maybe we should call this an adventure thread?  its going to leave the pavement more than your average city boy SUV and i think it'll make for some great stories.

speaking of factory kit...here's what makes it an "Off Road" trim vs the standard SR5 (what you would call a base model)
• rear locking diff
• multi-terrain select (fine tunes throttle mapping, traction control, and ABS for specific terrain)
• crawl control (essentially off-road low speed cruise control that engages a higher wheel slip sensitivity)
• physical transfer case shift lever

i insisted on the diff and this was the only way to get it.  all 'runners get factory traction control called ATRAC that's pretty baller and will get us through 90% of what we encounter via acting like an e-locker aka individual wheel slip control.  i'm not impressed with the weaksauce tires but we can fix that.

these 'runners get a lot of flak for being priced beyond what they really are - essentially churched-up trucks with 2010 tech in them.  and i don't think that's unfair.  but i do think they're the last of their kind, and i think their claims to cast-iron assembled-in-Japan reliability are well earned due in large part to sticking to what they know and keeping the tech BS to a minimum.  i see it as a 15 year investment and that's money in the bank to me.

so, join us, won't you, as we explore the appalachians and hopefully the lower 48 to follow in the coming years while we put TRD's finest hardware to the test.  i'd also be happy to go over how i shopped the car, some tactics i used, and the negotiation process fwiw.

[Sijray21]

Looks great! You really can't go wrong with a 4runner. I find the used market for certain suvs, trucks, and specifically Toyotas to be a bit inflated. I remember shopping for used Tacomas and prices were ridiculous for 40-50k models and even more so for 100k+ models. Toyota dealers are usually pretty stingy so good on you for getting that price.

[Senor_Taylor]

Great job! Love a 4Runner. I can't imagine what it feels like buying a Toyota new knowing it'll last forever.

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[D_Eclipse9916]

Great choice!

[.RJ]

whaaaaat? you fancy now.

[Senor_Taylor]

whaaaaat? you fancy now.

Don't use that word in a Toyota thread, lest you face the wrath of Jake.

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[Jake]

whaaaaat?  you fancy now.

Don't use that word in a Toyota thread, lest you face the wrath of Jake.

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He didn't buy a Sequoia Platinum at MSRP, we're good.

Scotty, this looks great for you guys! Everything you need, nothing you don't. In the vein of "fancy" - I have friends who bought a 4Runner Limited a few years ago and I see that one as an eyebrow-raising purchase. As you said, the modern tech isn't there, and these just are not luxury-esque vehicles in the first place. The sensible lower-trim models are perfect for what y'all are going to do.

Traded the Xterra or planning on selling private party? Feel free to post about the buying process and of course, the trips you take. Eager to read about it all!

[V1GiLaNtE]

Time to plan some trips with ya BOIIIIIIIIII.

[Beej]

Tested one of these before picking up the GC.  Between the tech and the trucky ride, the GC just fit our (minivan-stigma-avoiding suburban street car, only been on the beach once) needs better.

But we both still remark on how sweet they look when we come across them.  Sounds perfect for y'all!

lol on keeping that paint in that condition, good luck!

[JPolen01]

Tested one of these before picking up the GC.  Between the tech and the trucky ride, the GC just fit our (minivan-stigma-avoiding suburban street car, only been on the beach once) needs better.

But we both still remark on how sweet they look when we come across them.  Sounds perfect for y'all!

lol on keeping that paint in that condition, good luck!

That is exactly what happened to us when we landed on the CRV. More utilitarian than my wife and I cared for. I already told Scott this, but I know he will get his intended use out of it and it will be great for his family. 

I am a sucker for a cement grey TRD Pro 4 runner though.

[CaptainHenreh]

Could that be any more black?

[ScottyB]

ayyy thanks for the kind words guys

whaaaaat?  you fancy now.

Scotty, this looks great for you guys! Everything you need, nothing you don't. In the vein of "fancy" - I have friends who bought a 4Runner Limited a few years ago and I see that one as an eyebrow-raising purchase. As you said, the modern tech isn't there, and these just are not luxury-esque vehicles in the first place. The sensible lower-trim models are perfect for what y'all are going to do.

Traded the Xterra or planning on selling private party? Feel free to post about the buying process and of course, the trips you take. Eager to read about it all!

thanks man - look I DO NOT understand the appeal of the 'runner Limiteds. and our local dealer sells the hell out of them. like, this is a full frame off-roader and you just put 20's on it with 245/60 series street tires...wtf is the point now? i see them all over town and just shake my head.

xterra's likely gone by Friday, private sale. i listed it Monday morning and by lunch i had 3 people trying to show up that day with cash in hand. all of them parents trying to buy a car for their 16 year old, which makes sense. the way i see it i either wrote a killer FS ad or priced it like an idiot (3500). probably the latter. should get 1500 more than trade in though.

Time to plan some trips with ya BOIIIIIIIIII.

not kidding about getting it dirty and i still have an unhealthy obsession with the Mid Atlantic Backcountry Discovery Route. we need to figure this out

Tested one of these before picking up the GC.  Between the tech and the trucky ride, the GC just fit our (minivan-stigma-avoiding suburban street car, only been on the beach once) needs better.

But we both still remark on how sweet they look when we come across them.  Sounds perfect for y'all!

lol on keeping that paint in that condition, good luck!

said it before but i 100% get it, its a big old wagon body on a pickup frame. for most people its a bad fit. heck, for most 4Runner OWNERS its a bad fit.

i'd love to grab a set of TRD Pro wheels on the second hand market which might solve the lame stock tires problem at the same time....because they look so damn good. but for now, gotta let the steam blow off from the bank account.

you're ice cold. let me have my dream of not-haggard paint, for once!

Could that be any more black?

false, it cannot. this was what my wife insisted on. the Xterra read 108 degrees last week. we're full blown retarded.

[Sijray21]

Could that be any more black?

Possibly

[.RJ]

black on black on black roasting in the dirty south

[ScottyB]

LOL Jay

oh, forgot to tell a funny story. first thing Jen asked the sales guy was where could we take it to test out the crawl control.

he was like "you mean...you just want an open parking lot?"
"no, like, do you have a hill or something i can climb?"
"ah...well sure. uh. we have a gravel lot in the back..."

drove back behind the body shop into a pretty beat up lot and climbed a gravel hill and tested the locker. guy said it was the first time a customer's ever asked that, so we showed him how to use it, ha.

[Sijray21]

guy said it was the first time a customer's ever asked that, so we showed him how to use it, ha.

I enjoy educating sales people on their products.

[Deceus]

So much want. Definitely got a good deal there for sure. Was looking at used ones and they all seemed to be old as dirt or still well above $30k. That killed the dream real quick.

[ScottyB]

So much want. Definitely got a good deal there for sure. Was looking at used ones and they all seemed to be old as dirt or still well above $30k. That killed the dream real quick.

thanks and yeah.  i was totally prepared to buy one used until reality hit.  its a very weird market for these trucks.

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Feel free to post about the buying process

i would never claim to be an expert but know a couple things that could help.  if you think this should be a thread just let me know.

back in '05 when i moved to ATL straight out of college for my wife i didn't have any job prospects so i decided to try something involving cars.  took a cheesy clinic that a dealer network was putting on, on how to sell cars and then they'd place you at a dealership as sort of a feeder system.  i didn't last a day, but learned a few things anyway.  this all pertains to buying new only, i don't know much about leasing because we keep cars a long time and the used car market is bizarre and dealer costs on that stuff is impossible to guess.

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• the #1 thing most sales guys want to do is get you in the seat and get you emotionally attached to the car.  easier to manipulate you into paying stupid moneys for it.

• most people are only concerned with the monthly payment...doesn't matter how long it goes on for.  they will try to focus on that, not the actual total, and then they pass you off to the finance guy who then tries to load you up with all the "protection packages" and extended warranties.  some of those add-ons are warranted, most aren't and that's where they stand to make good money.

• you will not get a great deal at the end of the year like most people say.  i've been wrong about that too.  best months to buy are November and January, and late summer right before the model years change over....cars are weird and the model years begin in September instead of January.  on a more macro level, best time to buy is at the end of the month if you can.  dealers receive factory bonuses for meeting sales targets, as well as the sales guys themselves getting bonuses for quotas.  if you're the last guy they need to get a $250,000 monthly or quarterly dealer bonus from the factory before the day runs out, they're going to bend over backwards for you and you're going to make a sales guy a hero.
-----------------

good way to think of it...car dealers don't sell "cars" in a way...they sell parking spots.  they have a physical size limit and their new car inventory has to revolve about every month or two to make them money.  beyond that time frame they start taking a bath on the car either because of cash flow, storage space, curb appeal, etc.

as far as money goes, dealers have their invoice price which is a bit of a fakeout - its not the actual price the dealer pays the factory to receive the car, but its also not far off.  probably about 8-10% under invoice is their actual cost to buy from the factory (remember the OEM's customer is the dealer, not us).  then there's MSRP (manuf suggested retail price) which is basically market price minus local markup BS.  closer you can get to invoice the better obviously, but understanding they need some meat on the bone too - everybody's gotta eat - so its wise to negotiate with a bit of breathing room at first vs just coming out of the gate like "i want 5% below invoice".  

some further insight into dealer costs on a car - they have a thing called Triple Net.  that is their invoice minus holdback (the amount paid to the dealer by the manufacturer for each new vehicle sold, built into the invoice price) minus factory credits (advertising, flooring etc) and volume incentives.  in some cases a dealer will take a bath on cars at or below triple net just to get that sweet factory sales bonus for a monthly quota.  i think that was literally the case with our 4runner and why timing is important.  they'll never tell you what their holdback or triple net is so don't ask (although you can make a good guess), especially considering how easy it is to find out invoice pricing now, those are the only cards they have left to hide.  but just know that they have that money tied up in the cost of the car.

in terms of negotiation, ideally you only deal with the online sales guy first and hopefully entirely, and just avoid the actual car dealer circus altogether.  pit the dealers against each other through email with price matching and let them know upfront you're not going to pay a ridiculous destination/freight fee or admin fee.  ask them what their "OTD" price is, i.e. Out The Door.  that's the actual bottom line.  they will want to tell you the price before the add-ons to get you thinking that's what you're paying, when in actuality by the time you show up, drive the car, and then sit down you're going to pay tax + addons and now you're 4 grand over target.  if they're not being responsive or trying to pass you off to other sales guys, walk.

it helps to not be too much of a tire kicker.  straight to the point but don't agree to a test drive (see bullet #1) until they can give you a hardcopy OTD price quote or a very good deal on their best price backed up with your sources that show invoice pricing.  always be willing to walk, be willing to sleep on it.  some dealers will do damn near anything to literally keep you from leaving the dealership because its easier to get someone to agree to a split second decision, albeit poor ones, in the moment.  being able to walk physically or metaphorically keeps the deal on your terms.

a huge deal in dealerships is the CSI or Customer Satisfaction Index ranking which is derived from customer surveys.  OEMs use it to drive certain behavior in the dealerships as well as gauge a franchise's overall standing.  the surveys are based off a 1-10 ranking on questions and for some reason if you give a salesperson anything less than a 10 it could destroy their job as the cumulative rankings actual determine how/if a dealer gets certain inventory.  its a very stupid survey system but that's what it looks like right now.  use that as a negotiating tool, although you may sound a bit like a dick.  

it helps a lot to be very local to the dealer.  they stand to make a pile of money on the backend by servicing your car over the next 3-7 years.  if they know you're local, they know you're going to service with them and it gives them a chance to catch your eye with shiny new cars every time you come in which increases their chances of a trade in for the coming years.  talk that part up and make it clear you intend to be a longtime customer.

2 good sources for bottom line pricing or invoice pricing are TrueCar and the Costco Auto Program.  i used both and TrueCar came through with an awesome price but beware they straight up sell your contact info to every dealer in 100 miles.  you're going to have to up your email spam game after that.  i was willing to pay the price of inconvenience for the savings though.  Cars.com was how i found my civic but it was a dud for finding the 4runner.  that one just took me searching local dealer inventory and then emailing about it.

basically, found the truck i wanted, looked at other dealer inventory over the next few days and confirmed their price was ballpark.  emailed the online sales rep and asked for their OTD price.  got a "special internet" price back which was decent.  checked with Costco to get the invoice price, then registered with TrueCar and a different rep at the same dealer emailed me again with a special TrueCar price which was $1000 above invoice.  went to the dealer to talk with the internet sales guy with that price to test drive, and he was a good guy to work with.  i didn't have to lean on him hard but Jen and i both played the level headed, not impressed game a bit and it helped drive the conversation more towards what they could do to impress us.  negotiated down to $1000 below invoice if we financed through them at a normal rate, not the 0% APR since we had a large downpayment. we considered getting a loan from a credit union (their rates are often better) but their discount off the bottom line worked better long term, we'll be paying it off early, and we can always refi if we need to. anyway the numbers looked good so we agreed.  got punted to the finance guy, he tried to push a bunch of warranty and protection plan garbage on us and we shut that down.  walked out paying 3500 under MSRP including tax.  ALSO - shop mid week...we bought on a tuesday and the place was DEAD. it was so much more relaxing than a Saturday when it turns into a real shitshow.

boy looking back up this wall of text, sure would be easier if we just didn't negotiate car prices right?

heres a great article discussing how dealers operate and make a profit

amazing thread where a dealership general manager just answers questions about how to best buy a car and what its like.  so much knowledge there

[.RJ]

Scotty pretty much nailed it. This is how i got such a good deal on my Ridgeline a long time back.

[JPolen01]

^This. The only thing I would add (in my experience) is that you need to go to the dealer knowing the entire financial situation. If you show up expecting them to give your monthly payment you have already lost. Know what you want to pay for the car OTD, know your trade-in value, know how much you can put down, know the monthly payment and loan length you want.

The last 2 cars we purchased we did exactly this. Walked in, told them what we wanted to buy the car for and what we wanted our payment to be. A little haggling and boom, right in our payment range. Transaction complete.

Also "a deal" is such a weird term to use when it comes to buying cars. In Scott's case I will say yes that looks like a great deal. But at the end of the day if your payment is what you prepared to make and you are happy with the transaction, that is a good "deal" to me. Of course there are circumstances where you get a smoking deal like this one, but not always.