Really? Another Miata thread....

[rherold9]

I do wish I could get springs for $59 a pair, and get away with $1100 shocks... where mx5 class gets this stuff cheap, you are paying when it comes to motors and stuff.

1 out of 2 so double that price

[Kaan]

 rherold9

I do wish I could get springs for $59 a pair, and get away with $1100 shocks... where mx5 class gets this stuff cheap, you are paying when it comes to motors and stuff.

1 out of 2 so double that price

  reading is fundamental....

[Senor_Taylor]

I really wish I understood why you need internal engine work. Really going to alienate a lot of people.

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[Kaan]

I really wish I understood why you need internal engine work. Really going to alienate a lot of people.

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is it?!?!?! no one in the paddock is using junk yard motors outside of Honda challenge... and we pay a premium for import motors/trans ($3-4.5k for the whole drive train plus magic diffs) not really junk yard motors (though some people get lucky in the junk yard)

Spec3 = custom "stock" motors with M3 cams
SpecE30 = custom "stock" motors with dyno time to due the fuel pressure and massage things
Spec Miata = custom "stock" motors built to order

rumor is you can "order" your custom motor and it will cost you between $5k-$7k already... so why not buy the crate motor from mazda? that's essentially what a Rossini/Sunbelt motor is.

[D_Eclipse9916]

I really wish I understood why you need internal engine work. Really going to alienate a lot of people.

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is it?!?!?! no one in the paddock is using junk yard motors outside of Honda challenge... and we pay a premium for import motors/trans ($3-4.5k for the whole drive train plus magic diffs) not really junk yard motors (though some people get lucky in the junk yard)

Spec3 = custom "stock" motors with M3 cams
SpecE30 = custom "stock" motors with dyno time to due the fuel pressure and massage things
Spec Miata = custom "stock" motors built to order

rumor is you can "order" your custom motor and it will cost you between $5k-$7k already... so why not buy the crate motor from mazda? that's essentially what a Rossini/Sunbelt motor is.

Gts and ST use stock motors and detune. But our shocks are $6-12k haha


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[Senor_Taylor]

You're cheating if you're running an m3 cam. These are all people taking the rules to the extreme, so what happens when the rules are already asking for motor mods? People push THAT the the extreme. The goal posts are just moving further away for people that want to join it.

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[Kaan]

Gts and ST use stock motors and detune. But our shocks are $6-12k haha


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DJ you know what I'm saying... you and I have had the conversation at least once... though now I see what its super cheap to go "spec" for you and your "stock" $6k-$12k motors. one of the reasons I selected a B18C5 was because I could detune and run under stock RPMs to meet my power to weight requirements. and it should extend my motor life.

"spec" doesn't mean no motor work... it doesn't mean junk yard motors on the cheap. IMHO it means you will want to have the best of the best... however that comes to be. which means motors aren't cheap.

Taylor if you think the top Spec3 guys aren't building engines to the maximum the rules allow, you are quite mistaken.

talking to one of the spec E30 guys... the biggest key with them is appropriate headwork and special valve work. they can get a head for $150... then drop $1k into the head with parts and machine work. and that's the yearly refresh in between their 3 year new $5k motors.

Racing isn't a game... someone is going to take it more seriously than anyone else... then everyone else has to match.

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You're cheating if you're running an m3 cam. These are all people taking the rules to the extreme, so what happens when the rules are already asking for motor mods? People push THAT the the extreme. The goal posts are just moving further away for people that want to join it.

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your fearless group leader was running M3 cams at nationals one year and it was deemed legal. maybe that has changed... but that just tells you that he will push the rules on engine building.

I think in the MX5 case, if the built motor is better than the factory motor they will penalize it or it will go away. Mazda already has a sealed engine program from the NP3 class... they will just do it for MX5.

[rherold9]

Anyone got like $35k? Trying to get my spec mx-5 build finished and be the fastest car

[.RJ]

I dont understand why a spec class needs $2200 shocks, and if those motherfuckers could stop from sticking their grindy bits into the cylinder heads in the first place, that wouldnt be a thing, either.

This is why we cant have nice things. But it looks like an interesting class to run in now that all of the NA miata have been bent up. They'll eventually all go away like Spec RX-7 did, so kudos for getting out ahead of it.

[Senor_Taylor]

Gts and ST use stock motors and detune. But our shocks are $6-12k haha


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DJ you know what I'm saying... you and I have had the conversation at least once... though now I see what its super cheap to go "spec" for you and your "stock" $6k-$12k motors. one of the reasons I selected a B18C5 was because I could detune and run under stock RPMs to meet my power to weight requirements. and it should extend my motor life.

"spec" doesn't mean no motor work... it doesn't mean junk yard motors on the cheap. IMHO it means you will want to have the best of the best... however that comes to be. which means motors aren't cheap.

Taylor if you think the top Spec3 guys aren't building engines to the maximum the rules allow, you are quite mistaken.

talking to one of the spec E30 guys... the biggest key with them is appropriate headwork and special valve work. they can get a head for $150... then drop $1k into the head with parts and machine work. and that's the yearly refresh in between their 3 year new $5k motors.

Racing isn't a game... someone is going to take it more seriously than anyone else... then everyone else has to match.

---

You're cheating if you're running an m3 cam. These are all people taking the rules to the extreme, so what happens when the rules are already asking for motor mods? People push THAT the the extreme. The goal posts are just moving further away for people that want to join it.

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your fearless group leader was running M3 cams at nationals one year and it was deemed legal. maybe that has changed... but that just tells you that he will push the rules on engine building.

I think in the MX5 case, if the built motor is better than the factory motor they will penalize it or it will go away. Mazda already has a sealed engine program from the NP3 class... they will just do it for MX5.

[emoji22][emoji22][emoji22][emoji22][emoji22][emoji22]

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[Kaan]

I dont understand why a spec class needs $2200 shocks, and if those motherfuckers could stop from sticking their grindy bits into the cylinder heads in the first place, that wouldnt be a thing, either.

This is why we cant have nice things.  But it looks like an interesting class to run in now that all of the NA miata have been bent up.  They'll eventually all go away like Spec RX-7 did, so kudos for getting out ahead of it.

$2200 shocks came from the Penske/Mazda relationship. Spec Miata is no longer on non adjustable bilstiens .... they switched to Penske. It was said people asked for it... but its rumored Penske paid for it. this is just a carry over from SM to MX-5.

someone is always going to have their hands in the head... that's the "easiest" way to make some power that still "looks" stock. if you tell them don't do it, they are still going to do it.

[rherold9]

someone is always going to have their hands in the head..

I mean who doesn't love a good head

[Kaan]

someone is always going to have their hands in the head..

I mean who doesn't love a good head

[.RJ]

Nothing is ever spec and you cant legislate spending, but you can legislate return on investment... i.e. lap time per dollar.

Still, $2200 shocks is stupid, but maybe its "better" than having a bunch of "fixed" (lolz) shocks hwere you just have 4 different sets.

[D_Eclipse9916]

Kaan, couple bad assumptions. The motor in my M3 was a $2800 motor with $500 in rod bearings and gaskets. Expensive fabrication and custom pieces is what drives the expense in that class.

The motor in my Miata is $7200-8k but will have no problem doing 120-150 hours (Nasa weekend is less than 4!). $1500-2k for a refresh and good to go for more. Everything else has lots of hours replacement and is relatively cheap. Penskes are $1100 new on spec miatas FYI and cheap rebuilds and are sealed.

The main cost savings of spec Miata is zero fabrication, all bolt on and long replacement hours.

The only reason spec3 is cheaper is because it is not competitive. You get a field of more than just mid Atlantic and more than 20 cars and you’ll see the prices skyrocket.

[Kaan]

Kaan, couple bad assumptions. The motor in my M3 was a $2800 motor with $500 in rod bearings and gaskets. Expensive fabrication and custom pieces is what drives the expense in that class.

The motor in my Miata is $7200-8k but will have no problem doing 120-150 hours (Nasa weekend is less than 4!). $1500-2k for a refresh and good to go for more. Everything else has lots of hours replacement and is relatively cheap. Penskes are $1100 new on spec miatas FYI and cheap rebuilds and are sealed.

The main cost savings of spec Miata is zero fabrication, all bolt on and long replacement hours.

The only reason spec3 is cheaper is because it is not competitive. You get a field of more than just mid Atlantic and more than 20 cars and you’ll see the prices skyrocket.

I just used your price... but your M3 motor cost as much as my ITR motor... GTS and H2 are power and weight classes, not spec.

"back in the day" when Evan was being accused of cheating (with actual junk yard motors and transmissions) the rule of thumb was a "new" Rossini/Sunbelt every two years. No one felt they could afford the .5hp loss ... maybe that has changed, but as competitive as SM is, I doubt it... I'm betting folks are blowing smoke. Racers lie... period. I mean I don't, but Im not doing a whole lotta race'n ;

Spec3 isn't cheaper. The top 3 are guaranteed to be building motors to the top of the rules. The series leader pushed the rules so far YEARS AGO at nationals... it only took 2 years before someone was offering a "spec" E30 motor... I'm sure there is a game being played for Spec3 by now. It might not have a huge market, but I am sure there are people doing it.

I brought all of this up because Taylor was all worried that engine internals would push people away... these are all examples of engine internal work (Rossini/Sunbelt build balanced motors within the rules)... and its not pushing anyone away!

[Evan]

These are all people taking the rules to the extreme, so what happens when the rules are already asking for motor mods? People push THAT the the extreme. The goal posts are just moving further away for people that want to join it.

This is exactly my problem with those rules.   I can hear the rationale "well everyone was buying $10k built engines anyway!"  (SOME were, but not all)  "... so a built engine with Roush head and built bottom end will actually be cheaper!"
but all that means is the guys with cubic dollars are going to take the $9k crate motors and then build them up too.
And every part on that list has potential for hyper optimization.
All you can hope for really is that all that the extra money spent results in minimal gainz


but I still think Ryan should build his car into one......

[Kaan]

These are all people taking the rules to the extreme, so what happens when the rules are already asking for motor mods? People push THAT the the extreme. The goal posts are just moving further away for people that want to join it.

This is exactly my problem with those rules.   I can hear the rationale "well everyone was buying $10k built engines anyway!"  (SOME were, but not all)  "... so a built engine with Roush head and built bottom end will actually be cheaper!"
but all that means is the guys with cubic dollars are going to take the $9k crate motors and then build them up too.
And every part on that list has potential for hyper optimization.
All you can hope for really is that all that the extra money spent results in minimal gainz


but I still think Ryan should build his car into one......

WHEN someone buys the $7240 crate motor THEN builds it with a $1980 head and $460 oversized pistons... and there is an advantage, that will be the new norm. just like Rossini/Sunbelt motors are the norm in SM.

The only way to stop that would be to go to NP01 sealed motor system that mazda has. If you don't, they will spend +$10k with the crate motor, head, pistons, low friction rings, low friction coating, etc.

[Evan]

These are all people taking the rules to the extreme, so what happens when the rules are already asking for motor mods? People push THAT the the extreme. The goal posts are just moving further away for people that want to join it.

This is exactly my problem with those rules.   I can hear the rationale "well everyone was buying $10k built engines anyway!"  (SOME were, but not all)  "... so a built engine with Roush head and built bottom end will actually be cheaper!"
but all that means is the guys with cubic dollars are going to take the $9k crate motors and then build them up too.
And every part on that list has potential for hyper optimization.
All you can hope for really is that all that the extra money spent results in minimal gainz


but I still think Ryan should build his car into one......

WHEN someone buys the $7240 crate motor THEN builds it with a $1980 head and $460 oversized pistons... and there is an advantage, that will be the new norm. just like Rossini/Sunbelt motors are the norm in SM.

The only way to stop that would be to go to NP01 sealed motor system that mazda has. If you don't, they will spend +$10k with the crate motor, head, pistons, low friction rings, low friction coating, etc.

I believe the crate comes "built" and already has the head and pistons. (and it goes up to $9k after January)

Formula Enterprise went to a sealed version of this exact engine last year. It costs a few hundred more than this engine, and puts out 185hp. I would say that would have been a no brainer, but Enterprises may not have been able to keep up with demand if they think this class is going to blow up

https://www.scca.com/articles/2008770-fo...s-for-2018

Either way, I wouldn't expect crazy builds to happen until the class becomes very popular with huge fields. Its competition that drives the arms race.

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my Miata

wait, what?

[Senor_Taylor]

my Miata

wait, what?

What a loser. Doesn't even know

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