Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!)

[G.Irish]

Also, you can say that what the president says doesn't matter much, but I can assure you that you are wrong. The rest of the world absolutely looks at what America says and does and it in turn influences their actions. Many other nations trust the United States to do what's right most of the time, which is what holds our military alliances together. It's why other nations share intelligence with us, it's why other nations depend on our economic systems, it's why other nations model their justice systems after ours, it's why other nations cooperate with us in law enforcement, it's why other nations agree to treaties with us.

What Trump is doing is eroding the world's trust in America to be moral and just. People may think that this trust is a worthless thing, but they don't know what a world without trust looks like. The United States is less safe if we know less about our adversaries because we're not trusted with intel. Our economy is weaker if we get cut out of free trade agreements. We are less safe if we can't depend on our law enforcement partners to help us with transnational crime.

And now with this worldwide surge in right-wing nationalism, having the president of the United States openly spouting racist and white nationalist rhetoric absolutely makes the world a worse place.

[Kaan]

Why do we still talk about Bill Clinton?

1. we are only 4.5 terms away from Bill Clinton. that's nothing in the political timeline. Hell Hillary, his "strong independent" wife, was running for president not too long ago right?  
2. Proof its nothing in the political timeline, Pelosi is still in the house and has been on both side of the #metoo movement
3. it was all brought up because I hate partisanship... people need to be less partisan and more American. Hold people accountable when they need to be... period.

Definitely with you on #3, and the festering bag of shit without a handle sitting in the white house right now is a really solid place to start.

okay but you better line up senators and congress people next. this shit is everywhere but people keep posting shit with orange colored glasses on.

I'm voting for people I agree with at every opportunity in every level of government from local on up.

good luck with that! "we" tired down here and ended up with 3 at the local level stealing $15mil.

---

Also, you can say that what the president says doesn't matter much, but I can assure you that you are wrong.  The rest of the world absolutely looks at what America says and does and it in turn influences their actions.  Many other nations trust the United States to do what's right most of the time, which is what holds our military alliances together.  It's why other nations share intelligence with us, it's why other nations depend on our economic systems, it's why other nations model their justice systems after ours, it's why other nations cooperate with us in law enforcement, it's why other nations agree to treaties with us.  

What Trump is doing is eroding the world's trust in America to be moral and just.  People may think that this trust is a worthless thing, but they don't know what a world without trust looks like.  The United States is less safe if we know less about our adversaries because we're not trusted with intel.  Our economy is weaker if we get cut out of free trade agreements.  We are less safe if we can't depend on our law enforcement partners to help us with transnational crime.

And now with this worldwide surge in right-wing nationalism, having the president of the United States openly spouting racist and white nationalist rhetoric absolutely makes the world a worse place.

He is absolutely doing this on a international stage and its causing lots of issues. But this can be related to several international issues that past presidents have gotten involved in too... as I have stated before, we have made the wrong international relations decision since at least WW1... and only our might and winning has helped us have any reputation worth keeping. We have burned bridges all over the world with little to no outrage.... but influenced lots of people and pissed a lot off too

Stay informed, be vigilant, don't pick a side... this stuff has been cascading internationally (and internally really) for decades. Trump is just the bright orange icing on the top (I hope he's it and we turn it around)... with a big microphone and the biggest pulpit in the world.

[V1GiLaNtE]

Also, you can say that what the president says doesn't matter much, but I can assure you that you are wrong.  The rest of the world absolutely looks at what America says and does and it in turn influences their actions.  Many other nations trust the United States to do what's right most of the time, which is what holds our military alliances together.  It's why other nations share intelligence with us, it's why other nations depend on our economic systems, it's why other nations model their justice systems after ours, it's why other nations cooperate with us in law enforcement, it's why other nations agree to treaties with us.  

What Trump is doing is eroding the world's trust in America to be moral and just.  People may think that this trust is a worthless thing, but they don't know what a world without trust looks like.  The United States is less safe if we know less about our adversaries because we're not trusted with intel.  Our economy is weaker if we get cut out of free trade agreements.  We are less safe if we can't depend on our law enforcement partners to help us with transnational crime.

And now with this worldwide surge in right-wing nationalism, having the president of the United States openly spouting racist and white nationalist rhetoric absolutely makes the world a worse place.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that outside of our economic influence, most of the world doesn't really give a shit about what we do. At least in my experience traveling and talking to folks. I think as Americans we have taught ourselves or rather "hyped" ourselves into thinking that world revolves around us and that everything we do the rest of the world takes notice. In reality, when president CHEETO is banging out whatever nonsense via twitter the world just says:

[HAULN-SS]

When even vox debunks your attempt to paint the president as a pedo, you might want to rethink your strategy. I saw that language more than once in this thread, and thus far I don't think I've seen any actual evidence to the contrary. It feels of trying to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com...ll-clinton

[BLINGMW]

... get involved in the democratic primaries and go canvas for the moderate candidate...

Asking honestly, is there one? As I understand it they all support using my money towards government healthcare for undocumented immigrants. That's about when I tuned out.

[HAULN-SS]

If thats the way you want to frame it, sure.

---

Y'all can talk about when the cages were built until the cows come home, but they weren't so overfilled people couldn't lie down until your Dreamscicle got in office.

And they werent separating families or overfilling them or telling them to "go back where they came from".  That is a direct result of this administration's policies.  QED.

ICE/CBP have always been a bunch of fucking goons though.

True, they just sent them back. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.axios.c...2f4b1.html

[.RJ]

as I have stated before, we have made the wrong international relations decision since at least WW1...

The difference is that those "wrong" decisions come down to a matter of policy position and your beliefs. What is happening now is undermining the basic tenet of those relationships, our contracts, our agreements that we've signed with other nations - backing out of the paris climate accord, pulling the plug on the iran agreement, threatening to back out of NATO - you may have difference of opinion on where team america should be sticking its dick into around the world but we should be honoring our commitments and work with our allies and not shitting in the punch bowl.

This isnt about being partisan, this is about not being a piece of shit human being and country to the rest of the world.

[*insertusernamehere*]

Madison. Fucking. Motorsports.

Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk

[.RJ]

When even vox debunks your attempt to paint the president as a pedo, you might want to rethink your strategy. I saw that language more than once in this thread, and thus far I don't think I've seen any actual evidence to the contrary. It feels of trying to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com...ll-clinton

While proximity doesnt mean guilt by association, I hope you didnt miss this earlier

[Apoc]

 I have a problem with people "just now" having outrage.

I guess people can't educate themselves and then care about something if they didn't care in the past?

...and to be clear, I would never vote for Trump just like I'd never vote for AOC. Thankfully, I'm not beholden to the two party system... even if that's how the government runs.

[JPolen01]

Madison. Fucking. Motorsports.

Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk

We are a group of like-minded individuals that can discuss things other than cars. I for one think this some of the best content we have had in a while and a good debate. 

I know you are saying that tongue in cheek.

[HAULN-SS]

When even vox debunks your attempt to paint the president as a pedo, you might want to rethink your strategy. I saw that language more than once in this thread, and thus far I don't think I've seen any actual evidence to the contrary. It feels of trying to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com...ll-clinton

While proximity doesnt mean guilt by association, I hope you didnt miss this earlier

No, I read that. And then I looked for other corroborating sources, and then I found where actual journalists had looked even harder than I did, and literally came to the conclusion it was likely a serial anti Trump hoax perpetrator, and then I made a decision on what I think.  I don't have time to trace it down fully myself so this is best I can do on a phone in an airport gate. Exercise left for reader.

[SlimKlim]

... get involved in the democratic primaries and go canvas for the moderate candidate...

Asking honestly, is there one? As I understand it they all support using my money towards government healthcare for undocumented immigrants. That's about when I tuned out.

I think this is the main difference between our world views. You seem to be primarily concerned with YOUR money being used for the healthcare of people that "don't deserve it."

I am primarily concerned with MY money being used to provide corporate welfare to companies that reward their boards, executives and shareholders with a massive payout every time they take a good shit, and expect their hourly employees to rely on assistance programs to make ends meet. If you can't afford to pay people a living wage, guess what asshole, you can't afford to be in business.

[Apoc]

... get involved in the democratic primaries and go canvas for the moderate candidate...

Asking honestly, is there one? As I understand it they all support using my money towards government healthcare for undocumented immigrants. That's about when I tuned out.

I think this is the main difference between our world views. You seem to be primarily concerned with YOUR money being used for the healthcare of people that "don't deserve it."

I am primarily concerned with MY money being used to provide corporate welfare to companies that reward their boards, executives and shareholders with a massive payout every time they take a good shit, and expect their hourly employees to rely on assistance programs to make ends meet. If you can't afford to pay people a living wage, guess what asshole, you can't afford to be in business.

I actually think this is a pretty good summary of economic beliefs of left vs. right.

[.RJ]

When even vox debunks your attempt to paint the president as a pedo, you might want to rethink your strategy. I saw that language more than once in this thread, and thus far I don't think I've seen any actual evidence to the contrary. It feels of trying to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com...ll-clinton

While proximity doesnt mean guilt by association, I hope you didnt miss this earlier

No, I read that. And then I looked for other corroborating sources, and then I found where actual journalists had looked even harder than I did, and literally came to the conclusion it was likely a serial anti Trump hoax perpetrator, and then I made a decision on what I think.  I don't have time to trace it down fully myself so this is best I can do on a phone in an airport gate. Exercise left for reader.

This is a court document.  Sworn testimony under oath.  I would hope our prosecutors are not bringing uncorroborated evidence to trial.

https://radaronline.com/wp-content/uploa...signed.pdf

[G.Irish]

Also, you can say that what the president says doesn't matter much, but I can assure you that you are wrong.  The rest of the world absolutely looks at what America says and does and it in turn influences their actions.  Many other nations trust the United States to do what's right most of the time, which is what holds our military alliances together.  It's why other nations share intelligence with us, it's why other nations depend on our economic systems, it's why other nations model their justice systems after ours, it's why other nations cooperate with us in law enforcement, it's why other nations agree to treaties with us.  

What Trump is doing is eroding the world's trust in America to be moral and just.  People may think that this trust is a worthless thing, but they don't know what a world without trust looks like.  The United States is less safe if we know less about our adversaries because we're not trusted with intel.  Our economy is weaker if we get cut out of free trade agreements.  We are less safe if we can't depend on our law enforcement partners to help us with transnational crime.

And now with this worldwide surge in right-wing nationalism, having the president of the United States openly spouting racist and white nationalist rhetoric absolutely makes the world a worse place

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that outside of our economic influence, most of the world doesn't really give a shit about what we do. At least in my experience traveling and talking to folks. I think as Americans we have taught ourselves or rather "hyped" ourselves into thinking that world revolves around us and that everything we do the rest of the world takes notice. In reality, when president CHEETO is banging out whatever nonsense via twitter the world just says:

Sorry but you are wrong. Maybe the man on the street doesn't care, but foreign governments absolutely pay attention to what we do. Some of our intelligence partners have already pulled back on sharing with our government because they are afraid that Trump is compromised. Some of those same intelligence partners are how we've been able to interrupt terror plots, neutralize counterintelligence threats, and conduct offensive operations against adversaries. Indeed it was our Dutch intelligence allies who helped us identify and stop a cyberattack against State Department while I was there.

When our military is out there conducting joint operations, foreign fighters have to trust that we'll keep up our end of the bargain. If they don't trust our word, it makes it far more difficult to conduct military action around the world. People risk their lives to act as interpreters for our forces, or as informants, or to fight alongside us. When people don't trust us, that goes away. When we renege on promises to help those who helped us, how willing are others going to be to help us in the future?

In law enforcement, if other countries can't trust our word, they will not extradite criminals to us. People may not know it, but US federal LE do a lot of coordinating with foreign agencies to disrupt organized crime around the world, from the DEA, to the FBI, to US Marshals.

And bottom line is that countries like Russia and terrorist organizations always jump at the opportunity to capitalize on American misdeeds for their propaganda. 'See! They're no better than us!'

[Ryan T]

On point 2, I guess I don't care enough. 

A full 30-35% of the country has dug their heels in and are in full support of this racist orange anus-mouth meatbag and nothing anyone says is going to change that.

First off, I love RJ. Always have, always will. But, coming from one of the most conservative hard red parts of the country, I want to say this. If the left is so angry at name calling and negative language, referring to the POTUS in the above terms, or any of the other derogatory terms in this thread, hurts your argument. Calling someone names and deriding them, while deriding them for doing the same, hurts your argument. 

No need to overthink it, what he said was racist.  He is racist.

And it matters not one iota to the GOP, his Cabinet, or his base of supporters, sadly.

As for this, I don’t think it’s so much that it doesn’t matter to his base of supporters, but; more like, they don’t care. Everyone wants outrage at what Trump has said, which is deserved, but the vast majority of his supporters (who live all around me), could give two shits about day to day politics. The vast majority of his supporters don’t care what he says, who he offends, or even watch the news. Is the economy good? Yes. Is unemployment down? Yes. Are they being largely left alone? Yes. 

Hate me for it if you want, but I think the outrage over not being upset is dumb.  Whether Trump supporters agree with his statements or not isn’t an indication of how everyone feels, most of us just don’t give a shit. The vast majority of his supporters don’t watch the news an don’t care to speak out or yell about what he does, they are more concerned with living day to day and providing for their family. Not everyone who is a conservative agrees with Trump (or what he says, like me), but, unlike those who live in DC or are involved in it day to day, we don’t care.

[Apoc]

No need to overthink it, what he said was racist.  He is racist.

And it matters not one iota to the GOP, his Cabinet, or his base of supporters, sadly.

we don’t care.

I think you two said the same thing.

The only real difference is one side believes the topic is something you have to care about. The other side is too busy not caring to care.

[BLINGMW]

^
|
--- what Ryan said.

I think this is the main difference between our world views. You seem to be primarily concerned with YOUR money being used for the healthcare of people that "don't deserve it."

I am primarily concerned with MY money being used to provide corporate welfare to companies that reward their boards, executives and shareholders with a massive payout every time they take a good shit, and expect their hourly employees to rely on assistance programs to make ends meet. If you can't afford to pay people a living wage, guess what asshole, you can't afford to be in business.

As a fan of liberty, defined by both personal and economic freedom, my default answer is you do what you want and I'll do what I want as long as one doesn't restrict the other. No-one "deserves" anyone else's labor or property. 

Obviously as a country we've agreed on a lot of exceptions, we like being protected by a military, we like roads, we like environmental protections, and most of us are somewhat ok with being forced to pay the bill for them. Personally I don't think the federal government needs to run our school systems, nor do I want them running our healthcare. If those must be government run, leave it to the states. But what puts me on red alert is providing services for non-citizens, people who have no way to contribute in the way you and I are forced to. I'd suggest solving it a different way. Background check, here's your SSN, have a nice day.

For what it's worth, you and I might agree that something should be done about corporate greed and wealth inequality. I think reversing the Citizens United ruling and changing the definition of shareholder value for a corporation might be better ways to go about it. Placing limits on pay only makes the rich get creative, or even worse drives more business out of our country, and forcing higher minimum wages just gets people replaced by robots faster.

[HAULN-SS]

When even vox debunks your attempt to paint the president as a pedo, you might want to rethink your strategy. I saw that language more than once in this thread, and thus far I don't think I've seen any actual evidence to the contrary. It feels of trying to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com...ll-clinton

While proximity doesnt mean guilt by association, I hope you didnt miss this earlier

No, I read that. And then I looked for other corroborating sources, and then I found where actual journalists had looked even harder than I did, and literally came to the conclusion it was likely a serial anti Trump hoax perpetrator, and then I made a decision on what I think.  I don't have time to trace it down fully myself so this is best I can do on a phone in an airport gate. Exercise left for reader.

This is a court document.  Sworn testimony under oath.  I would hope our prosecutors are not bringing uncorroborated evidence to trial.

https://radaronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/jeffrey-epstein-lawsuit-docs-signed.pdf

Did you even read the links I posted? There is no trial. The case never went anywhere. The witness never showed up to anything.