The TV Show Thread *Possible Spoilers*

[Evan]

wrote down my thoughts to help make sense of the mess,  here is my brain dump.

Episode 6:

The queenslayer. 
So Dany went bonkers and roasted king's landing.  Its framed as a terrible injustice *but* remember previously in the show sieges are talked about how the entire population is starved to death so while it is unfortunate and not fitting her character,  it is not unprecedented.   Also,  Cersei Lannister.  

Tyrion reveals his true allegiance to the Lannisters by letting Jamie go to (try to) save his sister. 
Facing his execution, Tyrion then convinces Jon to kill Dany.  Now,  how the show has framed her to this point as a crazy madwoman,  so at this point in time it made some sense as the "right" thing to do for "the people".  

BUT,   In the talk with Tyrion in his cell, Jon rationalized Dany's brutality under the context of war (and given the norms of war at the time as mentioned above,  thats reasonable that he would reluctantly believe that)
It was when Tyrion said Dany would kill him and *his sisters* that he visibly made the reluctant decision to kill her. They would be rivals so this made sense.
When Jon met with her at the iron throne,  it was very clear that she still loved him, did not consider him a rival and had no intention of killing him (or his sisters).
It was at this point,  that personally I was willing to give Dany the benefit of the doubt and let her try to recover her sanity.  (Emilia Clarke said basically the same thing on social media after the show)  I thought the show would end on a positive note.
But Jon succumbed to the manipulations of Tyrion Lannister and killed her.
The biggest problem I have with this is that Tyrion saw no consequences for this.  Remember Tyrion even said afterwards "WE killed her"
While Jon was banished with a "life sentence" away from his friends and family on top of the grief of losing the woman he loved.  Sacrifice and hard decisions should be rewarded in good storytelling,  not punished.
SO
I will make the assertion that the Lannisters "won" the game of thrones.  Sure Tyrion isnt *that* Lannister and he is about a deep and sympathetic character as there is on the show next to Jon.  I wouldnt have a big problem with it (in fact it makes a great twist / underdog story) if it were not the way he went about it.   The fact remains that his ultimate loyalty was with the Lannisters, and he manipulated someone to kill the queen, and he now holds the most power in the kingdon.
Bran is not interested in governing (see:  kings council meeting ) so Tyrion has all the power and is the effective "ruler"

Speaking of Bran, 
Fuck Bran.  Shitty character, shitty writing.  After trudging through a too many seasons of boring "3 eyed raven" bullshit,  things *finally* got interesting with him when his powers were revealed via the retroactive mind-fucking of Hodor.  Some really cool shit could have come out of that,  but nothing did.  All of that was just a plot device for him to discover that Jon is a Targaryen.  Which Samwell found out anyway.   Which also didnt end up mattering.  At all,  since Dany didnt consider him a rival and nobody brought it up at the end.
So after that he is basically was dropped for a season or so,   then comes season 7-8 where all he does is tell us that he isnt even Bran anymore,  that he is basically medeival Google in person-form, and all he does is talk in monotone and stare off into the distance while wearing a fluffy jacket.  Clearly King material.  And lets not forget that previously he abdicates winterfell to Sansa because he wants nothing of leadership,  but now that its all of westeros,  all of the sudden  "thats why I made the trip!"

And triple-fuck Bran the little shit for not free-ing Jon and at least mentioning that he is a targaryen when you damn well knew it. (would have made a great hand of the king, like Ned Stark!)
Youre the fucking king and you cowtow to the wishes of a dickless mercenary?  This is a medieval king who can kill people for fucking sport. 

And lets talk about this "kingdom" for a second.  Sansa is allowed to secede and run her own gig.  Why wouldnt everyone else too?   What army does this kingdom have?  Unsullied- gone,  Dothraki- gone,  Northmen - gone.   Leaves absolutely no army.
*Anyone* with a small army could (and would! game of thrones, remember!)  march in (Dorne, Bravos, etc) and take over without even a fight.   And given history, would probably be more brutal than Dany ever would be.  Did you think that one through Tyrion and Jon?

[ScottyB]

Jon is actually the rightful heir to the throne

i can't believe they didn't capitalize on this.  the entire lead up of the entire 8 seasons was the payoff of seeing him ascend to the throne not only because he's a natural, righteous leader but because he's a damn Targaryen so its within the order of royalty.  remember everyone going OH SHIT when we found out through Brann's vision he was who he really was?  what that meant?  breaking the wheel was meant to be actually putting a compassionate ruler on the throne.  who better than the man who's the shield of men, who won't abuse his power because he never wanted any?  apparently what it actually means is he's just a plot device to get Dany killed b/c they had to make her the mad queen in one episode to tie up the series as fast as possible.

Arya wasted.  the most lethal assassin in the show, a stone cold killer, and hell bent on killing Cersei.  Dany was clearly the new Cersei, the point remains she was destined to use her faces to remove an unjust leader on the iron throne.  now she's Dora the Explorer.  

Brann the Boring as king, are you even serious

The Night's Watch has no reason to exist anymore, there is no northern threat.  the Freefolk are already part of the realm now.  the wall is a pile.  cute gate btw.

i guess they killed the Queen of Dorne last season?  wtf happened to her?

Should have been Jon as king, Brann as hand or Master of Visions or Master of History or Master of Staring or something, Arya as Master of War.  Sansa as Queen of the North.  let Bronn go.  Brienne and Pod as kingsguards.  Tell the Unsullied to sully their asses off to the east and free whoever they want.

[Apoc]

Jon as king is so predictable, though. Maybe the most kingly decision he made was abdicating, because he saw what happens to Targaryens when they gain power.

[ScottyB]

if you really want to take that angle then make him hand to King Brann. As Evan stated it was Ned's position as well and would be fitting. He may have Targaryen blood but he's still half Stark as well.

being exiled to beyond the wall is not only pointless, since the Night's Watch is functionally irrelevant, but again totally disregards his legacy and his character as the Shield of Men. He was the guy we rooted for because he had all the honorable qualities of Ned Stark but the experience in battle to understand the true cost of war. The lesson here is dedication to the protection of the realm gets you sent to a frozen wasteland.

[JPolen01]

Damn, I actually fully agree with Evan. That was spot on.

[Apoc]

if you really want to take that angle then make him hand to King Brann.  As Evan stated it was Ned's position as well and would be fitting.  He may have Targaryen blood but he's still half Stark as well.

being exiled to beyond the wall is not only pointless, since the Night's Watch is functionally irrelevant, but again totally disregards his legacy and his character as the Shield of Men.  He was the guy we rooted for because he had all the honorable qualities of Ned Stark but the experience in battle to understand the true cost of war.  The lesson here is dedication to the protection of the realm gets you sent to a frozen wasteland.

They spent a lot of time building up that Jon never felt like he belonged anywhere. No matter how much people told him he was a Stark, he never felt like a Stark. It appears he felt the same about being a Targaryen. He appeared most at home with Ygritte and the Wildlings.

I'm not saying season 8 was good, but I can see how his character would actually appreciate his fate.

[G.Irish]

Just sloppy, incoherent writing all around. Poorly-executed, clumsy finale.

As others have said, after the whole big deal about Jon being a Targaryen, it literally had not consequence in the final episode, and they never even talked about it when they were trying to figure out who should be king. That just didn't make any sense in the world of Westeros. The whole, "Bran has a cool story so he should be king," was half-baked. No, even 'half-baked' is being generous.

So many characters just jumped the rails and threw away so much of the development that happened over the other 7 seasons. Daenerys making this turn into being a murderous tyrant in like 2 episodes. Varys dying stupidly after surviving for decades by being cunning. Brienne ugly crying after being one-knighted. Tyrion literally not doing anything smart since last season, other than convincing Jon that he should stop Daenerys after she killed a million people. Some of the stuff would've been fine if they built up to it. But the narrative scaffolding just wasn't there.

[ScottyB]

He appeared most at home with Ygritte and the Wildlings.

i agree with you. but.

i don't like the mechanics of how he ended up back there in the end. banishment by his family and total disregard for his name. whether he wanted it or not, he was the rightful heir and a man of duty and any poetic justice of being back in the north felt like a sentence instead of a relief.

[Apoc]

He appeared most at home with Ygritte and the Wildlings.

i agree with you.  but.

i don't like the mechanics of how he ended up back there in the end.  banishment by his family and total disregard for his name.  whether he wanted it or not, he was the rightful heir and a man of duty and any poetic justice of being back in the north felt like a sentence instead of a relief.

Fair. Apparently he was right not to feel like a Stark, cause they sent his ass out into the snow.

[Evan]

being exiled to beyond the wall is not only pointless, since the Night's Watch is functionally irrelevant, but again totally disregards his legacy and his character as the Shield of Men. He was the guy we rooted for because he had all the honorable qualities of Ned Stark but the experience in battle to understand the true cost of war. The lesson here is dedication to the protection of the realm gets you sent to a frozen wasteland.

Agree 100%

They spent a lot of time building up that Jon never felt like he belonged anywhere. No matter how much people told him he was a Stark, he never felt like a Stark. It appears he felt the same about being a Targaryen. He appeared most at home with Ygritte and the Wildlings.

I'm not saying season 8 was good, but I can see how his character would actually appreciate his fate.

I agree, Jon's quest for identity and family was one of the driving themes of the show. He was an extension of Ned Stark, and the show would not have worked if he were not.
But they fucked up the ending because the show *DIDNT* end with his identity and family resolved.
The wildlings were not his family or identity, and Ygritte's death was the symbol of that.
The show made pretty clear that he was a Targaryen and thats where he belonged, I mean he rode a dragon FFS. Falling in love with Dany, the dragon riding rom-com, and the discovery he is actually a Targaryen was the signal that he *had* found his family and his identity.
When he was sent to the wall, the exact phrasing was "life sentence", thats not a positive thing.
There was no lightbulb moment for him that "this is where I belong". He was in extreme distress that he was being banished, there was no contentment or appreciation in his character whatsoever. What is his purpose now?

Its not a horror movie, you dont HAVE to have a crazy plot twist, especially when it betrays everything you have built to that point. Ive never heard anyone complain about the ring still going into the fire in lord of the rings.

I think a good end story would have been;
After the King's Landing BBQ when Dany and Jon meet in the Iron Throne newly renovated rooftop deck, Jon talks to her and she realizes her hubris and how she went crazy and lived up to her familial reputation.
She sacrifices her status as sole Queen (only thing she has wanted), and offers to rule together with Jon 50/50.
So Jon keeps her in check, ends the "endless war" she talked about earlier, and everyone lives happily ever after.
Except Tyrion, we get a 1 on 1 with him and Dany about how despite his best efforts he ended up being loyal to his family above all. Off goes his head. (there is your twist!)
Sansa still gets to secede because somehow being abused a lot makes you a good leader. Or something.
Since Dany is barren thanks to the witch, no worry of incest babies, and they can keep the "break the wheel: no more hereditary succession" bit

[Apoc]

I'm thinking Jon's getting a spinoff and eventually finds Drogon to fulfill his Targaryen fate.

[JustinG]

Now Benioff/Weiss get to ruin the star wars universe

[WRXtranceformed]

Just watched it, I went in with low expectations and it met them. Everything that was already said is spot on, I was fully expecting someone at that arena conference to pull the Targaeryn card regarding Jon. I have to assume that the writers were purposely setting up each plot line for future spin offs even if it left fans super pissed at the ending this year.

[JPolen01]

I've seen a few references to spin-offs. Is that for certain or just speculation at this point?

[JustinG]

Prequel is confirmed. Haven't seen a spin-off confirmation.

[ScottyB]

i'm still trying to figure out the purpose of the Lord of Light. was it just supposed to be a check to the balance of the Night King (death)? in which case is it no longer necessary now? all of the interventions the LOL (ha) made were bringing people back as useful tools against the army of the dead (Beric, Jon, maybe Sandor) and to protect other players (Arya). with the Night King dead, is there no longer a reason to worship it?

[Apoc]

There are reports there will be several and one begins filming this fall. Not sure if that's the prequel though.

https://www.theringer.com/game-of-throne...e-spinoffs

I do think a lot of the "what's the point" lend themselves to deeper exploration in said spinoffs.

Whether or not they'll be worth a damn is a whole 'nother story.

---

Now Benioff/Weiss get to ruin the star wars universe

I think you misspelled "Disney."

[ScottyB]

prequel is almost guaranteed to happen. most potential for material with GRRM's oversight and they can hire a fresh new cast since the current group all pretty much want out after 8 years.

[.RJ]

prequels and spin-offs.... meh. beating a dead horse.

[Apoc]

Would someone post a review of Chernobyl with some detail?

I'm trying to talk the wife into it, but she's worried it's too dark and depressing... which seems to be a theme with shows these days.