The MM Network

[.RJ]

I find that most people that work long hours are horribly ineffective with their time. Busy != output. Its even worse if you're billable by the hour.

[Jake]

My first manager at Amazon told me I need to up my work from 50 hours to 60. I told him I was already doing 5x10 and wasn't willing to work longer hours. He asked me if I could eek out a few more hours on nights and weekends. I said I was willing to do whatever the job required in crunch time, but not work nights and weekends as a way of life. He pressed me on it; I told him I moved here to build a life with my wife, not work all the time. He then told me if that was true, I needed to find a way to do 60 hours of work in 50 hours. I kinda agreed, but not really. He eventually transferred out, and I took his job. After four different jobs with Amazon, he left for career development reasons. So, yeah, grinding it out non-stop doesn't always pay off.

^ Your attitude is the attitude I have. Crunch time is one thing, but beyond that... I'm good.

Thankfully with what I'm doing (product management) it's generally easy to keep that happy balance, unless a release goes pear-shaped.

[Apoc]

Oh, and he got divorced (three kids) in the time he was Amazon-job hopping. Anecdote, but you get the point.

[rherold9]

Yeah, pretty much agree with everything here.

I'll say it again. I'd find another company if your long hours continue, Taylor.

[G.Irish]

RE: 1st year raise

Usually companies of that size have a scale that they give raises on which is usually tied to your performance review score. E.g., 5 out of 5 review = 6% raise, 4/5 = 4%, etc. Ask about that to give you an idea of where things might fall. If you get a perfect review and the 6% just know that asking for more has a low chance of success.

If they don't have a scale, you can maybe point to your accomplishments and ask for the 10%. Realistically I would say that with 1 year in the workforce you're not gonna have a ton of leverage yet so I wouldn't get too bent out of shape about the first raise. Which brings me to my next piece of advice.

Your goal right now should be to gain the experience and expertise that are gonna get you to where you want to go. If you want to do project management, try to get sent to PMP or CSM training. Try to take on the work that will demonstrate that you know how to plan, document, and execute. You may not get paid extra for it now, but the key is to do the things that will position you to get paid later.

If you don't want to program it's a bit harder to get the big jumps in salary. It can be done, but you have to identify hot skills that will get you paid and train up on them. Data science is a big one and dev ops (particularly with cloud tech) is another avenue where if you get hands-on experience you'll quickly gain leverage for salary jumps.

What I've seen moving through the IT industry is that there are tiers of experience that act as gates. 1-3 years experience is junior, and at that level you can find a job fairly quickly, but you don't have as much power to dictate what you get. Once you get into the 4-6 year bracket you can start calling yourself "senior" if you stayed in the same general job type. Beyond 4-6 years your job prospects come down to technical depth in a particularly stack, as well as having the breadth to be able to adapt to different situations efficiently. So you may have 9 years total experience, but with 2 years in Tensorflow and someone will throw $$$ at you.

[Senor_Taylor]

I don't really have large deliverables, unfortunately. So while I get a lot done, it's not like I can finish work for this sprint and leave. I'm trying to force myself into a position that's less responsive to work and more proactive and creating my own tasks with all of the work I've picked up with being the go-to on this new product, so I have to be available 9-6 regardless. The general rule is to average 45 productive hours a week (Not including lunch), but my manager has told me he's cool with me doing 42-43 since I get a lot done.

I stress myself out about this more than I should since all the people above me have told me I'm fine with what I do and literally no one has said anything negative about anything I've done. I haven't even been corrected once on anything. It worries me because I feel like I'll start leaving before 6 then the hammer of Justice will come down upon me. I think I'm just worrying myself about something that won't happen.

However, this keeps me motivated to bust my ass and continue to set myself apart.


Edit: Thanks, G. You're the man I was looking for, haha. I want to get my PMP eventually, but I don't qualify yet. I've been trying to carve my own role in my department by keeping busy with larger scale things like working with PMs and Devs and having organizational meetings rather than the case work that is expected of me. I like this company/department because they see this and give me less of the trivial work since I'm doing my own thing. This is why I don't really want to jump ship. I have entirely too much freedom on the work I do for a 22 year old.

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[rherold9]

"I like this company/department because they see this and give me less of the trivial work since I'm doing my own thing. This is why I don't really want to jump ship. I have entirely too much freedom on the work I do for a 22 year old."

I think you'll be surprised about what you said here can be found at other companies. Also, I bet you can find a lot of other things you have said you like about your company elsewhere while also not having long hour expectations and such.

If you are happy where you are/what you are doing then do whatever.

[Beej]

Excellent advice from most of the old farts here and I don't have much to add.

I will jump in as an anecdote that you don't have to jump ship to stay competitive.  Position yourself as a valuable employee and sometimes shoot for out-of-cycle raises - when they don't have to meet that "5 stars = 6%" quota - particularly before an important point in your project (kicking off a big effort you'll lead, nearing a big deployment, etc).

Maybe I got lucky.  I do concede that it was far easier when we were a small company than after we got purchased and then merged again and got bigger and bigger - but it's happened with both.

[Senor_Taylor]

I really appreciate everyone's advice! I won't forget this when I'm CTO.

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[WRXtranceformed]

Another technique I have seen some people use successfully is interview with another company, get a higher offer from said company, and go back to their employer and see if they are willing to match it.

It's an aggressive move and obviously you have to really matter to the company, but it does occasionally work

[Jake]

Another technique I have seen some people use successfully is interview with another company, get a higher offer from said company, and go back to their employer and see if they are willing to match it.

It's an aggressive move and obviously you have to really matter to the company, but it does occasionally work

I did that in 2016 - recruiters had been hitting me up, I followed through with a couple, and had some offers starting to unfold but didn't want to leave. Went to my boss, laid it all out, and 26% later I was happy to stay.

[G.Irish]

Another technique I have seen some people use successfully is interview with another company, get a higher offer from said company, and go back to their employer and see if they are willing to match it.

It's an aggressive move and obviously you have to really matter to the company, but it does occasionally work

I think that can work a lot of the time if you're willing to actually move.  People say the risk is that it may create bad blood but I don't think it really does unless you're a dick about it, or you work for dicks.

My general take is that I'm not going to interview for jobs I have no intention of taking so I wouldn't seek offers just so I could get a raise at my company.  I might give my company a chance to counter offer if I haven't accepted an offer but once I accept an offer I've never reneged on it.

[Apoc]

Not that anyone needed proof I'm a dick, but I don't believe in counter offers. At that point, communication has broken down enough that something has already changed in the employee's attitude toward the job. You might buy another year, but I've seen enough data to know it's a sign things won't last. It's never just money and, from my experience, is indicative of a mismatch on both sides.

[WRXtranceformed]

Not that anyone needed proof I'm a dick, but I don't believe in counter offers. At that point, communication has broken down enough that something has already changed in the employee's attitude toward the job. You might buy another year, but I've seen enough data to know it's a sign things won't last. It's never just money and, from my experience, is indicative of a mismatch on both sides.

I'm kinda in this boat too as an employer.  I lost an employee 2 years ago to another company that offered them like double their salary.  I didn't bother to counter offer because I knew we couldn't match it but even if we could I knew that employee would be on borrowed time.  Teamwork makes the dream work and it would be hard for me to trust someone on my team knowing that they had been actively interviewing with someone else.  At that point it makes more sense to start the search for a replacement and put your time energy and money into that person

The irony is that they left that job after like 3 months. Like I said before, grass is not always greener

[JustinG]

What Derecola said.

The wife just went through this.

She was unhappy with how her role has changed over the past 6 months, interviewed, got an offer, and told her current employer. They matched and said they'd change her role. But the seed is already planted that you wanna leave. She had communicated her dissatisfaction up the chain the last 6 months and nothing changed til she was leaving.

Her sole reason for contemplating staying was she liked her team, but job satisfaction > team IMO. You can build relationships/your brand at the new job too.

Most data and articles we saw said you'll still leave within the year anyway, cause you'll still question if something better is out there.

Luckily if this doesn't work out her Senior level exec said let him know, he will make a spot if she wants to come back (taken with a grain of salt). So she isn't burning bridges, but, after this week and her project started spiraling into an abyss, she is glad she took the offer.

[JPolen01]

I'm with you guys. Unless someone is only out fishing for more money they are exploring options for a reason. No point in keeping someone around and paying them more if they already made up their mind to leave.

[JustinG]

Now with that, I try to update my resume frequently to see if anyone contacts me, but if the first call doesn't sell me, I don't pursue. I just like knowing what's out there, and it makes me feel wanted when a recruiter calls me, even if they are from cubicle farm in India.

[G.Irish]

I would agree that if you're shopping jobs because you're unhappy, then yeah accepting a counter offer isn't a good idea.

I've gotten 2 big raises from the same company without using counter offers. The first time was because I researched job postings that were comparable to my skill set, and plotted out a graph of the salaries I could find. I made my case that I was worth X, and that's what I got. Second time was aforementioned situation with shitty manager.

[Apoc]

I got an 8% off cycle (base pay) raise early last year by doing similar, except I used a person I hired into my exact same job code as the reference. It helps when you know the comp ranges the company uses. 

[.RJ]

If you've got people on your team learning/growing and taking that to new jobs, I'd say that's a good thing, even if it means leaving the company.

Most companies do a really shitty job recruiting/rewarding/promoting internally and then complain about turnover. Sorry IT industry, you made your bed with that one.