Students Who Race

[Tyler.M]

I think most are impatient because they see where "people are" instead of where "they started" and expect to start at the end.  It's a process...

This. Need more posts like this. I think a lot of undergrads look at you, Jake, Maeng, Gerald and see guys that we assume have piles of cash to throw at racing but in reality you guys were just really smart and focused with where you spent your money.  I'm fickle with this hobby and switch between bikes and cars on a pretty constant basis and never really focused on racing at any point, meaning I have 0 skill or financial assets invested in it. 

I know when I joined I chomped at the bit to get to where a lot of you guys were because I loved the club and the community and found a place at JMU that I belonged to. In the end, I ended up frustrated with a pile of an M3 and no money to do anything with it other than drive it around. I worked too much to pay for car parts, then worked weekends, which knocked me out on doing events. In hindsight, I should've gotten a reliable car that was a decent learning platform and started out slowly. I bought the M way before my skillset or budget called for it and then never got much further.

[Scott]

Even for DE1 and DE2? 

Tracking is tracking. That's like saying you bang your girlfriend without protection but it's ok cause you never go more than halfway in.

An instructor died that way the last day I did a hyperdrive, some shitbag in DE1 in a GTO was going way too hard and not listening to his instructor on Jefferson and ended up wrapping the passenger's door around a tree.

Way more to that story than "some shitbag" driver.  You are leaving out the tech guys who didn't do their job either (or follow policy) which was a large contributing factor among lots of other details.
But as everyone has said, I've seen multiple cars written off in DE1/2 for various reasons, it's also why I do not instruct anymore personally.  It's not just yourself you have to worry about, it's other's too.  If the guy behind you looses his brakes, has brain fade, etc and hits your car, guess who is responsible for the damage?  You are.

[Jake]

Look at Taylor/Matt/Jake's shitbox miatas.  Notice a pattern they never really got to drive a lot of HPDEs like they intended?  Spend the $5-7k up front and get to actually drive instead of trying to repair a car that honestly your experience/tools/garage isn't ready for at this point.  Compare to Ryan Herold/Jake/I where we ended up with a little more expensive cars but actually got to run.

To be fair, my Miata was actually really quite nice (2 owners, 70k miles when I bought it) and the only thing that made it shitbox-y was blowing the piston rings after the first year of track abuse. And then the replacement engine I bought turned out to be kinda broken from the get-go. 

I've been very lucky with the E36 M3 - four years of track use out of that engine and original clutch. Rolled over 156k at VIR last weekend. But it came to me in far worse shape than the Miata did, I just think Mazda BP engines are kinda POS-y when they get beat on non-stop.

Good point about the "where we came from vs where we are" though. Jonathan mentioned something at VIR about "you just have so many little gadgets and things you need/use for doing this" and I had to remind him that I've been slowly buying and upgrading for a lot of years now - I didn't go out and buy an AIM, a transponder, a GoPro, a trailer, all these tools, the suit/helment/HANS and oh yeah build a car all in a couple of months. I started out in a $5k Miata on cheap Falken summer tires and Hawk brake pads, nothing more.

[G.Irish]

So I forget all of who tracked their cars from the original group, but I know I did as well as RJ and Chan.  What I would say is:

Autocross First
Get some experience with autocross to build up your car control skills before you track.  Tracking is not exactly the same but having a feel for what happens when you step over the limit and having some ability to get the car back under control is vital

If You're Driving a Street Car...
I don't think you have to have a car you're willing to write off in order to track.  But you must be realistic about the possibility of that happening and mitigate that risk accordingly.

• Do not drive on the ragged edge of your abilities.  Leave yourself some margin (i.e. drive at 7/10ths or whatever).  It's tempting to drive as hard as you can in order to go as fast as possible around the track but your chances of crashing go up dramatically when you do so.  This becomes trickier the faster you get.  A lot of the crashes I've seen through the years happen in that inbetween period where someone is starting to get fast (intermediate to advanced group) but their judgment and car control skills haven't caught up.  Also, it's not a race, don't let the red mist cloud your judgment.
  
• Don't get the most expensive car you can afford.  Self explanatory
  
• Don't get a shitty car either.  The more things that can break/fail at the track, the higher the chances of a crash.  And having to do unplanned wrenching on your pile at the track is no fun, wastes track time, and is distracting.
  
• Don't get something monstrously fast to start out in.  Not saying you have to get a Miata, but something with 400+ hp is not necessary and may impede your growth as a driver.  And you will be going faster when you make a mistake, which makes it harder to recover and more likely you'll hit something.
  

Track insurance is a good option if you've got a car that is more expensive than you feel like risking.  That wasn't around back in the day.

[Jake]

• Not saying you have to get a Miata, but something with 400+ hp is not necessary and may impede your growth as a driver.  And you will be going faster when you make a mistake, which makes it harder to recover and more likely you'll hit something.
  

Troof.

On the one hand, it's cool that this 4200+ lb whale of a BMW can hit 140 on the back straight with a Hyperdrive-skill-level exit of Oak Tree. It's also pretty terrifying, especially if the brakes start to fade.

[GTBrandon]

First of all, thank you to all the alum who have responded to this, it was exactly the discussion and conversation I was trying to start. I'm glad to see so many differing opinions yet also seeing everyone leaning in the same general direction.

This car is a blessing for me to have, and by no means a decent track car due to as Jake said, weighing 4200 with stock suspension/brakes and some decent summer rubber on there. I added power to it thinking that would overcome the weight, and while its fun with the 100+ added torque, it was the biggest misconception I had about the impact of weight. Money is tight, I got in over my head with the car and really forget all the consumables that go into even HPDE1 whether I have credits built up or not. I know its a process, and won't be able to get everything at once (trailer, SUV, tools, performance, and most importantly experience/skill), but just want somewhere to start.

I will continue going to every autocross available in my current car, and karting to get a feel for something with a little less weight attached and more notchy than an electric steering rack on a bloated bavarian car boasting more HP than I really need. But I still have that itch that a parking lot full of cones can't scratch...I still am going to want to be out on the track every time I work a weekend or even see pictures on Facebook.

I am thinking of saving up this year from driving the busses and over the summer at either Costco or a possible internship at a different German dealer. IF, keyword here, I am able to find the money, space, parking, time, etc, then I want to get a start of a car for the future. Maybe an E46, E36, E30 (not really sure, don't want to get a car based on looks so I need to drive them all first), and therefore have something much more prepared for the track, and also be able to go into the wall and still allow me to drive to work the next day.

After all, that seems to be the consensus, don't track a car you're not ready to lose. So if money allows, the answer seems to be, get a car that I am "okay" with losing, and slowing building up my arsenal and skills throughout each NASA season and also autocrossing this car instead of my DD. Also, keep in mind, I am in NO WAY able to afford that right now, so this is all a pipe dream for me right now granted I can stay away from 3am pizza and actually save my money. But hey, that's what being young, dumb, and broke is all about, right?

[rherold9]

This isn't the Brandon I know.

If you want to get out on track so badly try either doing a hyperdrive here or there or if you can swing the money try to rent someone's car if they let you. The latter may not be the best because you could still possibly on the hook for any damage to the car that isn't yours but I'm not sure how else you can get on track besides just saving and waiting it out while distracting yourself with other things (like I'm doing). You'll slowly get over the hump of that need. Pressuring yourself will just not make you happy (trust me I've recently gone through this).

Buy a car that you'll like and also one that has people who actually race in it if your end goal is racing. If you want to just HPDE/TT/Instruct just find a fun car that isn't terribly expensive.

Like you said It's all going to take time. Working yourself up about not being out there is against that known which is counter-intuitive to the end goal.

[ScottyB]

i didn't race as a student, but as a student who desperately wanted to race my street car, i found a happy medium in doing autocrosses.

10 years after graduating i did my first track day with a cheap, slow car and still had a blast. i would have preferred to not wait that long - but in the meantime i built up a nice assortment of tools and supporting gear so that i could prep the car to a level that put my conscious at ease and ensured that if i had a small mechanical issue at the track, i could confidently fix it. i also went into it knowing i could wad the car up and had a savings account that would allow me to recover with another car purchase without putting me in a super uncomfortable financial position. this really helped me focus on enjoying the event instead of holding back in constant fear.

since then i've found most of my interest move to rallycross, but i still want to do the average track day here and there. after doing my first one, i've realized its just a matter of preparation and perspective. if you go into it with a half-assed car, you're probably going to spend half the weekend exhausted from fixing constant problems. on the other hand, if you go into it with an expensive car, there is potential for serious financial loss if you make a mistake. the key is finding a happy medium with a car that you've come to grips with being able to send to the junkyard in the worst case possible.

but in the end, you can track ANYTHING. some of our past members have gone out on track with civics that had maybe 100hp. we've had some people out there with cars that have 400+. we've had some people with fast-as-hell cars come home in one piece time after time, while others with maybe 120whp have ended up on top of tire walls.

its a rewarding time, but just prepare to recognize the potential areas you'll need to address that coincide with the speed and condition of your car.

[*insertusernamehere*]

This is a very good thread.

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[Jake]

if you can swing the money try to rent someone's car if they let you

DriveGear rentals can be around $1,200 for the weekend. It may be cheaper to rent from someone privately, but regardless, I think the best option is to take whatever rental money and put it toward the purchase of something older as he said (Ewhatever BMW)

[G.Irish]

Yeah honestly I haven't seen very many track rental options that are cost effective for someone doing HPDE. For racing there's chumpcar and AER but even then you're in for at least $1000 per week, usually more.

[rherold9]

if you can swing the money try to rent someone's car if they let you

It may be cheaper to rent from someone privately, but regardless, I think the best option is to take whatever rental money and put it toward the purchase of something older as he said (Ewhatever BMW)

That's what I was getting at is private. I don't disagree just giving some more food for thought.

[Senor_Taylor]

DJ, you can fuck right off calling my car a shitbox. I really don't appreciate that at all. I did what I could with the money I had and I would never call someone's car that. Maybe find a nicer way of saying cheap car.

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[D_Eclipse9916]

It wasn't meant to offend and I apologize if your feelings were hurt. You bought cars that needed plenty of work intending to track/autox/rallyx them.

I have bought plenty of cars I consider shitboxes (anyone remember my rusty convertible?).  I wouldn't call a car that can't idle during the cold a perfectly working car    Again it's not meant to offend, but there is a clear difference between a "cheap car to track" and a "cheap because it has issues and needs lots of work before being trackable".  From now on I will call your car "cheap because it has issues and needs lot of work before being trackable" instead of shitbox.

I just see all these "I bought this car for $5XX" threads where you spend umpteen amount of hours and $$ to even get it go down the road, get used for one autox or rallyx and then aggravate you before the owner wants to sell it.  Of course you guys are going to get discouraged. Instead of spending all those hours and "fix it" dollars to wait a couple months or year to buy a decent example that isnt "cheap".

If there is one regret I have from all the cars I have built and modified, it is wasting time on "cheap cars that need work" instead of ponying up. This is your HOBBY, a question of affordability is a moot point. If you can afford a $3k car now, you can afford a $5k car in 6 months....

[GTBrandon]

I feel like what he meant to say was wait a little bit and save money to buy something a little more reliable and track(hell even road) ready. Rather than jump on the first thing you see just because it fits the CURRENT budget, and happens to be a car other people throw on the track.

[*insertusernamehere*]

Oh is this the part where I'm supposed to get mad too? Oh well lol.

[Senor_Taylor]

I would like to point out that my white Miata was ready to be tracked except for the roll bar which I was literally about to purchase. It was completely fine and had no issues except a high idle when it was wrecked. The E46 wasn't anywhere close to it, but the M Edition was fine to track too if I put a roll bar in it, so I think you're incorrect entirely. I'll see you at the track with my shit box E30 <3

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[GTBrandon]

I'll see you at the track with my shit box E30 <3

Summit next month? HPDE1 buddies? You vs Jackson vs the FatF30?

Tune in next week to find out this and more

[Senor_Taylor]

I'll see you at the track with my shit box E30 <3

Summit next month? HPDE1 buddies? You vs Jackson vs the FatF30?

Tune in next week to find out this and more

I have some things like an impending move and a few weekends away from home coming up so the car might not be ready, but hopefully. Definitely will do refrigerator bowls.

[Mike]

I think you guys actually have it tougher now than we did way back. The cars that were affordable to us were simple, lightweight, and not particularly fast. That's a perfect recipe for a starting track car. 15 years later, those cars, with few exceptions, are all shit-buckets (I would really really really caution you from starting out with something 20+ years old). Your affordable set of cars are not particularly simple, heavy, and not necessarily slow. It's a completely different recipe that kind of blows for this kind of thing.

If I were to do it now, I'd look at something old and simple (think: 90s) that has been tracked and has meticulous records. Something you can drive on the street too.

The "walk away from it" bit is real. At the very least stash aside a grand or so just in case shit hits the... wall... so you can afford a shitbox that will get you home 50% of the time.

How I did it? Spent A LONG TIME looking for the perfect car. Until then, I worked my ass off at events, and by the time I "graduated" HPDE I still had leftover credits. Then I became an instructor; never paid for a track weekend in my life.