GM ignition switch debacle, let me be insensitive for a min

[BLINGMW]

This one might even be better than the Toyota recall http://www.mmsports.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8831

NPR has a good history of the issue:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.npr.org/2014/03/31/297158876/timeline-a-history-of-gms-ignition-switch-defect">http://www.npr.org/2014/03/31/297158876 ... tch-defect</a><!-- m -->

And now GM has the nerve to say it wasn't NEW GM that willfully ignored the problem for 10 years, that was OLD GM! Oh wow, the balls. :bow:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.businessinsider.com/r-gm-seeks-court-protection-against-ignition-lawsuits-2014-22">http://www.businessinsider.com/r-gm-see ... ts-2014-22</a><!-- m -->

So this is pretty horrible:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://articles.philly.com/2014-04-21/news/49268426_1_saturn-ions-port-richmond-section-ignition">http://articles.philly.com/2014-04-21/n ... n-ignition</a><!-- m -->

But like the Toyota issue, I'd still like someone to explain to me why this isn't 95% driver error. Having the engine die does not require crashing. I would be dead so many times over by now. So would my wife. Tell me if I'm missing something, but the steering wheel isn't getting locked, so they're just losing power brakes and steering, and then, I can only guess, freaking out and going into jesus-take-the-wheel mode. :dunno:

Hey folks, let me just go into PSA mode again here, but this is an education problem. Don't bet your life on your car always doing what it's supposed to do. Familiarize yourself with the controls, put both your hands on the wheel, and please take the job of operating the weapon seriously.

Your thoughts?

[BLINGMW]

ah here we go, finally found a story that bothers to mention this

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://globalnews.ca/news/1242738/recalled-gm-cars-attracted-young-inexperienced-drivers-unaccustomed-to-handling-a-crisis/">http://globalnews.ca/news/1242738/recal ... -a-crisis/</a><!-- m -->
“With an entry-level car where you have a newly licensed driver, the freak-out will win the day,” said Robert Hilliard, a Texas personal injury lawyer who is suing GM in several cases. “All that those young drivers are going to do is respond to the panic.”
Thanks lawyer guy! It's the driver's fault... therefore... let's sue GM! :thumbup:

[Evan]

Well to be fair, losing 'power' brakes is kind of a big deal. When I roll my car down the driveway to create some room at the top I just stick it in neutral, and Im always pretty surprised by how much force in the pedal it takes to stop a 3mph rolling vehicle. Add a lot more speed and its going to be really really really hard to stop, especially when dealing with the 4'10" soccer mom driving the 8 row Canyonero max suv.
power steering is similar in effort.
the vacuum does stay in the booster for a little while, but how long and how much assist that gives you i have no idea.

also, my question is, does the engine still spin while wheels rolling and if so is it still generating vacuum ?

[Jake]

From what I've heard, at least with some of the cars, the steering is locking. So in that case, when you have literally no steering control as you attempt to figure out what's going on and control yo' shit... and no power brakes... I can see how some crashes have happened.

[SlimKlim]

Ridiculous, I was under the impression that it did cause the steering wheel to lock, which made it more understandable. Like the Toyota issue from a few years ago I think this just highlights the issues in our driver education system. It's the most dangerous way to travel with the highest number of random variables, but all you have to do is drive a Taurus around the block to get a license to operate a 3,200lb 130mph battering ram.

Our roads would be so much safer if driving students received accident avoidance and skidpad training before getting their licenses. And while we're at it bring back parallel parking.

It freaks me out that I'm on the road with people who will simply give up and make their peace if they snap a serpentine belt...

[BLINGMW]

the vacuum does stay in the booster for a little while, but how long and how much assist that gives you i have no idea.

It's typically one or two presses of the pedal, but then yes, if you wasted those panicing, now it's pretty hard.

also, my question is, does the engine still spin while wheels rolling and if so is it still generating vacuum ?

Good question. It sounds like in an auto it does not, or I guess this wouldn't be as much of a problem. Will try on my next rental car.

From what I've heard, at least with some of the cars, the steering is locking.

Hey, if that's the case, it would explain a whole lot. But it sounds pretty clear that it's just moving from the spring loaded ON position to ACC, which wouldn't lock steering.

[G.Irish]

Also depends on where/when the car shuts off. Right after college I bought a 2000 Chevy Silverado as a tow vehicle. I was going around a corner that was lined with guardrail when the engine cut off. I came really close to hitting the guardrail because I lost power steering at just the wrong time. Luckily I wasn't going too fast and I was able to brake. I traded that thing in after a week.

But imagine going through route 33 or driving in snow and it could easily end in big crash. At highway speed one should be fine as long as you stay calm, but I could see a lot of situations where the average person would crash.

Then, after impact, the air bags don't deploy hock: Glad I didn't hit that guardrail.

[Ken]

Our roads would be so much safer if driving students received accident avoidance and skidpad training before getting their licenses. And while we're at it bring back parallel parking.

Wait, wait, wait. You guys don't have to parallel park as part of your test?? The fuck?

Also, did you know in NJ they don't even take you on public roads? it's in parking lot with cones. It's like the world's worst autocross.

[BLINGMW]

true, good point G.

You know, I cannot beleive I just thought of this. But do you know what the actual solution for both the Toyota and GM issue is? And should be a boost to driver education (that's the hard one to fix)?

hock: hock: hock: OUTLAW AUTOMATIC TRASMISSIONS. hock: hock: hock:

Problem.
Solved.

Come on federal government, step in and do something right for a change. The automatic transmission IS the automatic fire position on the AR15. Someone think of the children!

[SlimKlim]

Remind me to move to Europe if Channing gets into office.

And nope, in Virginia parallel parking was removed from the test before I had to do it. My parents still taught me how but most kids just had to figure it out.

[JustinG]

Remind me to move to Europe if Channing gets into office.

And nope, in Virginia parallel parking was removed from the test before I had to do it. My parents still taught me how but most kids just had to figure it out.

I didn't have to parallel park either, but I took my driving test with the football coach and only had to do like 2hrs of seat time compared to the what 6hrs? I rarely have to parallel park, and avoid it like the plague, but I can still do it.

[Evan]

Our roads would be so much safer if driving students received accident avoidance and skidpad training before getting their licenses. And while we're at it bring back parallel parking.

Wait, wait, wait. You guys don't have to parallel park as part of your test?? The fuck?

Also, did you know in NJ they don't even take you on public roads? it's in parking lot with cones. It's like the world's worst autocross.

Yes, in VA you learn how to drive.
In NJ you learn how to park.
:wink:

[JPolen01]

Maryland just recently switched to on road driving tests a few years ago. When I took mine it was on a closed course and I did have to parallel park.

[Ken]

Our roads would be so much safer if driving students received accident avoidance and skidpad training before getting their licenses. And while we're at it bring back parallel parking.

Wait, wait, wait. You guys don't have to parallel park as part of your test?? The fuck?

Also, did you know in NJ they don't even take you on public roads? it's in parking lot with cones. It's like the world's worst autocross.

Yes, in VA you learn how to drive.
In NJ you learn how to park.
:wink:

lol, and in NY, you do both.

[WRXtranceformed]

Uh, a lot of people old and young don't know how to drive their cars even when they are fully functioning. Steering lock or not, "power" brakes or not it does not surprise me when those people crash. You have to remember, we are not all "normal" drivers...for the most part we are probably among the best especially you guys who track your cars frequently. You understand your braking, steering and tire limits better than 99.99999% of people on the road. Most people have no clue, hence extra accidents when it's rainy, or busy, or sunny, etc etc

[Ken]

Uh, a lot of people old and young don't know how to drive their cars even when they are fully functioning. Steering lock or not, "power" brakes or not it does not surprise me when those people crash. You have to remember, we are not all "normal" drivers...for the most part we are probably among the best especially you guys who track your cars frequently. You understand your braking, steering and tire limits better than 99.99999% of people on the road. Most people have no clue, hence extra accidents when it's rainy, or busy, or sunny, etc etc

For example, my old roommate who decided to take his Audi Quattro (AWD,brah) on summer tires out during an ice storm. Loses control on a turn and rips the e-brake, because, emergency right? Sigh.

[JPolen01]

You have to remember, we are not all "normal" drivers...for the most part we are probably among the best especially you guys who track your cars frequently. You understand your braking, steering and tire limits better than 99.99999% of people on the road. Most people have no clue, hence extra accidents when it's rainy, or busy, or sunny, etc etc

I came here to say this. Especially when the OP daily drove a 76 BMW for a while. You might understand how everything works because the 2002 had nothing except the driver. Most people drive cars to get places without having any knowledge of how anything works. Can you really expect a random person to not freak out when their engine shuts off at speed and possibly locks the wheel and their brake pedal turns to a cinder block? Give em a break.

[SlimKlim]

For example, my old roommate who decided to take his Audi Quattro (AWD,brah) on summer tires out during an ice storm. Loses control on a turn and rips the e-brake, because, emergency right? Sigh.

I may or may not have also crashed that Audi on summer tires in the middle of a ice storm, thank god we stopped before that pole...

[G.Irish]

I think that the trend towards making it easier and easier to drive mindlessly is going to make drivers more dangerous not less. Starting with automatic tranmissions and all the way up to lane keep assist and automatic braking. The less people actually have to drive the car the more fucked they'll be when something goes wrong (as in this case).

Tell you what though, GM deserves to get raked through the coals much harder than Toyota did. It will be interesting to see if it hurts GM's sales at all.

[SlimKlim]

Give em a break.

Yeah but the point is this knowledge can, and has been, the difference between life and death for the poor bastards involved in the GM and Toyota recalls. We could give them a break, or we could push for more stringent driver education and save lives.

I for one would support a more European style of driver education, even if it costs $2000 to get a license it's worth the cost to have safer roads. In addition to skidpad training we should have driver education cars where the instructor can remotely kill the ignition at any point, force people to practice hauling that unassisted steering wheel and use the last pump or two of the brake pedal to get the car stopped.

I don't think that automatics and electronic nannies are the cause of this issue, a contributing factor, sure, but I've seen plenty of people tooling around in 3-pedal econoboxes that still have no idea what they're doing. Education is the problem and education is the answer.