asteele2 Wrote:You could say that Hopkins is also an exception, also coming from the AMA, but his career has been pretty much a flop thus far.
You could say that. If you've never really followed MotoGP before yesterday. Hopper is a hell of a rider. He's on a shit bike on less than spectacular tires and he's managed to set a pole this year, run at the front of the pack repeatedly, and get pretty damn close to the podium. About the only thing you could call him is an idiot for staying with Suzuki but I bet they're paying him a hell of a large sum of money to do it.
.RJ Wrote:I wonder if the change to 4-strokes with big powerbands and lots of electronic controls (traction control, etc) favors the 250 riders coming in more than the superbike riders? With the 500 2-stroke, it was the other way around.
It doesn't favor anyone really. But remember, Superbike has traction control. In fact, it's either the Ducs or the Suzukis but they have rider-adjustable-on-the-fly traction control. According to Superman Rossi the MotoGP premiere class bikes can be ridden by anyone. The advantage of going large discplacement four stroke was an amazing increase in rideability.
G.Irish Wrote:As far as guys like Mladin, there's no real point in taking a gamble on a guy like him because he doesn't have a lot of years of racing ahead of him. Sure, if it was clear he could make an impact right away then it'd make sense but for the factory teams they've gotta think long term and long term someone like Pedrosa, Stoner, Melandri, Hopper, Nicky, et al is a better investment. One of the satelitte teams might have taken him but Mat probably didn't want to waste his time with that.
Mladin is paid more by Suzuki to dominate the AMA than any team in MotoGP would ever offer him. In fact, he's paid more than most of the MotoGP riders this year. Plus he's not nearly as light as any GP rider and he's already done MotoGP. He's a big fish in a small pond, he's not going anywhere.
Spies on the other hand will find himself in WSBK or GP very shortly.
And MotoGP still draws from AMA, only thing is AMA doesn't produce a lot of talent. Look at the AMA Superbike riders now:
Spies - he has a future outside of the AMA. I really think this will be his last year in AMA, regardless of whether or not he wins the championship.
Mladin - Huge paycheck, age is starting to make him the next Duhamel.
Duhamel - What is this guy? 50? He's never leaving AMA and he's never winning another championship unless Honda makes the CBR1000RR not suck.
Zemke - He's an "almost." Again, stuck on a CBR1000RR so he won't win much of anything. Kudos to him for winning at Miller, but even he said it (paraphrase) "We only won here because there are no switchbacks." Starting to get too old for MotoGP
Yates - just not good enough
Ben Bostrom - Not good enough
Hodgson - past his prime
Younger Haydens - Arguably not good enough. The youngest is 23, which means he needs to set the world on fire or accept AMA for life.
Remember Nicky was a 18yr old phenom. There's another 18 year old in AMA Superbike but I can't remember his name. If he gets a real ride he may have a future.
The easiest way into MotoGP Premiere class is to perform in MotoGP 250 or dominate WSBK. But you don't have to be the best, look at Hoffman. His best championship finish before being bumped to Premiere class was 12th in 250. But he made Kawasaki happy as a test rider and got to fill in occassionally in Premiere class before getting picked up full time by them and then getting a Ducati ride for this year.
stevegula Wrote:It doesn't favor anyone really.
Right, the best riders will always find their way to the front. But the riding style required to go fast on the 4-strokes is much different than the 500cc two-strokes -
I think that the riding style that most of the 250 guys bring in is more easily adapted to the 4-strokes than the 2-strokes.... where as when they were on the 500's, the superbike "style" was more easily adapted to the GP bikes.
In Rossi's book he wrote about how he crashed alot on his first year on 500's because he was trying to ride it like a 250.
stevegula Wrote:But remember, Superbike has traction control. In fact, it's either the Ducs or the Suzukis but they have rider-adjustable-on-the-fly traction control.
In WSBK, only Ducati and Suzuki have traction control. The honda teams are developing a system on their bikes and should be ready soon. Until yesterday, traction control has been banned. Suzuki had some sort of workaround, although not sure how effective it was. The 250 is still more of a cornerspeed bike than the superbikes, traction control or not.
Also, the 2 recent americans that have made it over from the US into Moto GP (hayden, hopkins) have had a push into the series, they havent been actively recruited by the GP teams the way the 250 and WSBK riders had been.
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
.RJ Wrote:Also, the 2 recent americans that have made it over from the US into Moto GP (hayden, hopkins) have had a push into the series, they havent been actively recruited by the GP teams the way the 250 and WSBK riders had been.
Most of that is because, fast or not, they're disadvantaged to begin with. 1) They're unheard of outside of the U.S., and 2) they know nothing of racing outside of the U.S. It's also hard to say hopkins was pushed at all into MotoGP. One guy made a phone call and he got some test rides and made a team. But again, he was 17 or 18. Most people in AMA now are older than that, they're past their teaching prime for MotoGP level racing.
And at a minimum, for atleast one year a U.S. rider is severely hindered because he has familiarity with none of the tracks MotoGP runs. That's not the case for 250 and WSBK riders. With the 250 and WSBK riders you can say "Well, they're X fast on Y bike, there's good potential they'll be A fast on B bike." That's not the case for AMA riders.
Face it, AMA isn't as great as it thinks it is and most of this is because it's in a country that largely doesn't care. It's a stepping stone. Much like CCS and WERA. Unlike CCS and WERA, if you're fast enough you can make a living in the AMA, but you'll never be regarded as one of the best riders of all time just because you're winning AMA races. Just look at Mladin. Great rider. Has his mechanics down pat. Uses every last inch of the track and does it consistently. Tested at Philips Island this last off-season on his AMA Superbike and ran times consistent with middle of the pack MotoGP riders. But he's not going to be remembered like Rainey, Schwantz, Augostini, King Kenny, Mick Doohan, or Rossi.
stevegula Wrote:Face it, AMA isn't as great as it thinks it is
No, AMA is a disaster 
They're a joke right now. Its like amateur racing the way they are organized.
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
Yeah Spies is the only guy in the AMA that can move up right now and I think he should probably go to WSBK (Alstare Suzuki maybe). There are a few other young guys way out in the wings that could make it but they'll have to prove themselves with a championship or two before they get a shot.
Josh Herrin is only 16 and he's already gotten on the Supersport podium and Danny Eslick is 20 but he's shown the pace to challenge factory riders in Supersport and FX on a privateer bike. Either one of those guys could move to the international level. I think Herrin will eventually do a lot better than Jason DiSalvo ever will.
2018 Ducati Panigale V4
Past: 2018 Honda Civic Type-R, 2015 Yamaha R1, 2009 BMW M3, 2013 Aprilia RSV4R, 2006 Honda Ridgeline, 2006 Porsche Cayman S, 2012 Ducati 1199, 2009 Subaru WRX, 2008 CBR1000RR, 2009 Kawasaki ZX-6R, 2000 Toyota Tundra, 2005 Honda CBR600RR, 1996 Acura Integra GS-R, 1996 Acura Integra GS-R, 1997 Honda Civic EX
http://www.aclr8.com
G.Irish Wrote:Josh Herrin is only 16 and he's already gotten on the Supersport podium and Danny Eslick is 20 but he's shown the pace to challenge factory riders in Supersport and FX on a privateer bike. Either one of those guys could move to the international level. I think Herrin will eventually do a lot better than Jason DiSalvo ever will.
Herrin! That's the guy. He's got a serious future. Someone else to look out for in following years is a kid named Robert Wilkey. He's still in CCS, or was last I heard, but he'll be in AMA in a year, two tops. Kid is running 1:18s on a Fast Lanes prepped Kawi @ Summit Main.
BTW, if y'all want some better insight into AMA than what you're reading in magazines there is a guy on dcsportbikes.net named Jay Hannam. He used to handle a lot of operations for AMA until about two years ago. Knows pretty much everyone and has a lot of insight on some stuff, even small stuff like why AMA doesn't have much in terms of air fences.
I should clarify my comment about Hopkins.
He's a great rider, I wouldn't say that he isn't. I didn't mean to imply that. I know how he came up to GP and what his career looked like beforehand... what I meant was that his result sheet isn't as specatacular as it could be.
Racing motorcycles isn't only about how you ride. Yeah, that's the big thing, but there are decisions you have to make along the way about other thigns. For Hopkins, he decided to stay with Suzuki. It was a pretty noble move, to stay with the team that he came up with, but it doesn't look like it's going to net him a win - that's all.
When it comes to Ryan Jenkins, the story ends with me putting him in the wall.
2009 Speed Triple | 2006 DR-Z400SM | 1999 CBR600F4 | 1998 Jeep Cherokee
-Ginger
asteele2 Wrote:what I meant was that his result sheet isn't as specatacular as it could be.
It's as spectacular as it could be on that bike. No one in MotoGP faults Hopper for his results the last few years. And unless he gets a ride on one of the more serious teams (factory Yamaha team, not the Tech 3 team, factory Ducati team not Pramac d'Antin team, or a Honda team), which he hasn't been offered in the last few years, he's not going to be able to leave Suzuki.
I mean, let's look at those teams right now -
Camel Yamaha, the current Factory Yamaha team - Rossi and Edwards. Rossi has one year left on his contract after this year. Edwards will probably be around for as long as that (Rossi got him on the team and he'll probably keep him around). Maybe Hopper gets an offer when Rossi leaves, but I wouldn't expect Rossi to leave as long as he's getting serious competition from others.
Repsol Honda - Nicky Hayden and Dani Pedrosa. Honda isn't letting go of those guys anytime soon. And if they left at all, it'd probably be because Rossi vacates Yamaha and they offer a ton of money. But even then they may not, because that Repsol Honda bike is the best in MotoGP. If you're not the best rider in MotoGP (and neither of them are right now), then I can't imagine you'll give up the best bike and lose chances of winning the championship.
Fortuna Honda - Melandri and Elias. Elias' spot could become open in the next year or two. Hopper on a set of Michelin's could mean some competition. Honda will do their best to keep Melandri around though.
Alice Ducati - Gibbers and Capirossi. Both are too good to let go. They don't have much of a career left, but they're both too good to let go.
And there's still one wild card in all of this: Max Biaggi. Unless MotoGP decides he's too old, he's still an unbelievable rider. He'd still be riding with Honda if he weren't an arrogant prick. But his worst overall finish in 14 full seasons as a MotoGP rider (between 125/250/500/MotoGP classes) was 5th.
It's hard as shit to jump teams in MotoGP unless you're Rossi. Your contract has to expire at the same time as someone elses', and then you have to hope there isn't already someone else lined up to fill his spot. Hopper can't really wake up one day and say "That's it, I'm riding an RC211V today." And worst part of it all is that it's expected that Honda will stop throwing so many bikes out there next year when they switch to 800cc engines (they've got 4 teams and 6 bikes out there right now).
stevegula Wrote:And there's still one wild card in all of this: Max Biaggi. Unless MotoGP decides he's too old, he's still an unbelievable rider.
Max is a bitch, he burned way too man bridges and he's done. He couldnt even get a WSBK ride.... maybe an AMA SBK team will pick him up :lol:
He was a good rider, not a great rider. He crashed too much, folded under pressure, and blamed his equipment, his team, the track, everyone but himself.
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
Even with all of Max's shortcomings I could see him getting a ride at Kawasaki or Suzuki. He's still better than a lot of guys out there.
Hopper had an offer from Ducati on the factory team but I heard that it wasn't for much money. He probably could've gotten himself a Honda but he would've had to have signed before Stoner got signed. Either way he'll be a free agent for the 2008 season and there'll probably be at least one seat at Ducati open by that time and maybe Colin and/or Rossi will have hung it up by then. And who knows Team KR might have a seat open too. They'll certainly be fairly competitive.
2018 Ducati Panigale V4
Past: 2018 Honda Civic Type-R, 2015 Yamaha R1, 2009 BMW M3, 2013 Aprilia RSV4R, 2006 Honda Ridgeline, 2006 Porsche Cayman S, 2012 Ducati 1199, 2009 Subaru WRX, 2008 CBR1000RR, 2009 Kawasaki ZX-6R, 2000 Toyota Tundra, 2005 Honda CBR600RR, 1996 Acura Integra GS-R, 1996 Acura Integra GS-R, 1997 Honda Civic EX
http://www.aclr8.com
.RJ Wrote:stevegula Wrote:And there's still one wild card in all of this: Max Biaggi. Unless MotoGP decides he's too old, he's still an unbelievable rider.
Max is a bitch, he burned way too man bridges and he's done. He couldnt even get a WSBK ride.... maybe an AMA SBK team will pick him up :lol:
He was a good rider, not a great rider. He crashed too much, folded under pressure, and blamed his equipment, his team, the track, everyone but himself.
He doesn't always fold under pressure. That's why he's got so many race wins under his belt. And I guess you didn't know it, but he actually had a ride lined up for MotoGP this year, he just couldn't pull off a tire deal. When no tire deal materialized, his sponsor (Camel) left. Once that happened Kawasaki told him they couldn't afford to put him out there and he finally lost that ride.
Biaggi was a great rider. If he weren't so consistently at the front of the pack, you never would have learned about him in Faster. Don't forget that guy has four championship titles under his belt. Biaggi's one downfall was his arrogance. He's kind of the T.O. of MotoGP right now it would seem. Pissed off enough people that he doesn't get to play for awhile. Of course, the biggest issue is who he butted heads with: Honda. Honda thinks it is the bike that matters, not the riders. So if a rider doesn't play by their rules they get fired, doesn't much matter who they are.
Look at Hayden. He'd much rather be riding the bike Pedrosa is on, but Honda told him if he wanted to ride at all he'd be testing out next years bike. Which makes it all the more surprising that he's leading the championship. Very few people at Honda ever expected him to go top 5 because of the bike he's on and the competition he's up against this year. Although it kind of sets the stage for next year. Yamaha is having chasis issues this year and actually had to go back and pull from last year's frame, whereas Honda is already fine tuning their setup for next year.
AMA had made traction control legal.
Quote:AMA Pro Racing announced today that the newly-formed Road Race Rules Committee unanimously approved a change to the rule regarding traction control in the AMA Superbike Championship.
The rule change, announced this morning via an AMA Pro Racing Competition Bulletin, reads as follows:
Effectively immediately replace E.23A, pg 36 with:
a. For Superstock and Supersport, any form of engine control system that can actively change the performance/acceleration of the engine using input from any sensors that are not OEM on the motorcycle, to create a situation of better traction at the rear wheel at any time while the motorcycle is being ridden is prohibited.
The rule change effectively legalizes the use of traction control devices in the AMA Superbike and AMA Formula Xtreme classes while limiting the application of such devices in the AMA Supersport and AMA Superstock classes.
ÔÇ£It is our belief, and one that was echoed by each member of the rules committee, is that we should continue to limit the use of traction control devices in the stock classes but open it up in the modified classes,ÔÇØ said AMA Pro Racing Director of Technical Development, Kevin Crowther. ÔÇ£This rule change is consistent with the spirit of our class rules and objectively recognizes the current state of development of this emerging technology.ÔÇØ
Crowther pointed out that OEM application of traction control on production motorcycles is imminent.
Under new AMA Pro Racing rules making guidelines, rules are proposed by a discipline-specific rules committee then forwarded to the AMA Board of Directors for ratification. The Road Race Rules Committee held its inaugural meeting last Thursday at AMA headquarters in Pickerington, Ohio where the committee voted to not only approve this specific rule but also that the board approve its immediate implementation.
ÔÇ£Everyone agreed that this rule change was important enough to have it implemented immediately,ÔÇØ confirmed Crowther. ÔÇ£WeÔÇÖre happy that the committee acted quickly and was supported decisively by the board.ÔÇØ
Simply put, good news for Suzuki and others because they're no longer cheating.
*edit* actually, let me clarify. Suzuki and others are no longer bending the rules. They weren't cheating because the traction control systems they were using weren't violating the AMA's definition of traction control. Most of y'all probably knew that though.
I suppose it will take a few weekends for them to sort out their systems, but right now I dont see the finishing order changing anywhere. The best racers/teams will always be up front.
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Quote:Laguna Seca is the first weekend that AMA Superbike teams have legally been able to use traction control on their race machines. With just mere days between the announcement and the race, there wasn't even time to test a system -- much less develop one from scratch.
Ducati seems to be openly admitting they have a TC system in place, with both riders commenting on it to the press. On Friday, Hodgson said he felt the new stuff (which had been sitting idly in boxes at the team's shop at Road Atlanta while it was outlawed) had no effect on his lap times or riding, and wasn't even sure if it was operational. On Saturday, Bostrom and Hodgson said they thought their system helped their efforts, allowing them to get on the throttle earlier. Or maybe some of that was the grippy new pavement ...
The Japanese factories will take more time to develop new stuff, so they are pretty much limited to what they were using -- if anything -- before the rules change. The AmHonda system is said to soften the power a bit too much for the riders' liking. Over at Kawasaki, the ZX-10R is so new that TC is probably not on the front burner by the crack development staff, we hear.
In one of the press conferences, a local reporter naively asked Ben Spies what he thought about the traction control rules changes. It has been widely believed by those in the paddock that Suzuki developed a crude but effective system that doesn't use wheel speed sensors. Ben's response (we're paraphrasing here) of "Wow, it sure would be grand to try that one day when we finally get it" was one of the funnier moments of a humorous weekend.
For the non-factory squads, third-parties are now offering traction control systems for sale at prices under 10 grand, we hear.
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
I meant to put this in my first post - Apparently FIM is considering taking traction control away from racers in WSBK.
Personally, I'd like MotoGP, AMA, and WSBK to outlaw anything that helps with traction control. It'd make the racing more fun to watch. Back when guys came out of turns spinning up the rearend and such. It was just so much more eventful. Plus traction control takes more of the riding ability out of the rider and puts it in the hands of the bike. Vermeulen once said that riding Honda's RC211V was considerably easier than their WSBK CBR1000RR because of all of the electronics thrown into it.
I just don't want MotoGP to go the way of F1 and be boring as shit to watch.
stevegula Wrote:Spies on the other hand will find himself in WSBK or GP very shortly.
And MotoGP still draws from AMA, only thing is AMA doesn't produce a lot of talent. Look at the AMA Superbike riders now:
Spies - he has a future outside of the AMA. I really think this will be his last year in AMA, regardless of whether or not he wins the championship.
And I got shown up. Spies just signed a two year deal with Suzuki to remain in AMA. Haven't heard details on money or why he's staying vs going to WSBK/GP, but he's definitely not going. Two year deal doesn't make much sense though, he's risking getting too old to join GP.
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