Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!)

[Ken]

Pure Libertarian government is close to the most unreasonable and unlikely form of government. It all sounds great in theory until no one pays shit "voluntarily". Then everyone gets screwed. What would be better is a mix of taxes + less spending on waste-less poop.

Hey bro, you want those power lines to your house? Hehehe, yeah we'll put them to your house with you fronting the bill. Good luck.

Dude, it's fine. They only want that, "to the extent possible" 

At which point, they will form a board. That will supervise the funds needed. Probably secure it from each person within their region. DEFINITIVELY NOT A TAX THOUGH.

[CaptainHenreh]

No, I don't live in Harrisonburg.

[Kaan]

Pure Libertarian government is close to the most unreasonable and unlikely form of government. It all sounds great in theory until no one pays shit "voluntarily". Then everyone gets screwed. What would be better is a mix of taxes + less spending on waste-less poop.

Hey bro, you want those power lines to your house? Hehehe, yeah we'll put them to your house with you fronting the bill. Good luck.

Oh, your house is on fire? Sorry, not enough people volunteered money to put it out. We'll put it out if you pay us directly though.

no one paying voluntarily is a societal problem IMHO. volunteering in general (time) is down across the board. 

lets keep the fire department thing going... we write a check once a year to the local fire department (its volunteer) when they send out their mailer. but they also are VERY good at fund raising... events i voluntarily go to... cash party, bbq, raffles, bowling events (which none of you sons of 'itches come to for the charity i support with time and money), etc. 

last year my little town raised enough funds to pay for their $900k equipment purchase.

[Ken]

Pure Libertarian government is close to the most unreasonable and unlikely form of government. It all sounds great in theory until no one pays shit "voluntarily". Then everyone gets screwed. What would be better is a mix of taxes + less spending on waste-less poop.

Hey bro, you want those power lines to your house? Hehehe, yeah we'll put them to your house with you fronting the bill. Good luck.

Oh, your house is on fire? Sorry, not enough people volunteered money to put it out. We'll put it out if you pay us directly though.

no one paying voluntarily is a societal problem IMHO. volunteering in general (time) is down across the board. 

lets keep the fire department thing going... we write a check once a year to the local fire department (its volunteer) when they send out their mailer. but they also are VERY good at fund raising... events i voluntarily go to... cash party, bbq, raffles, bowling events (which none of you sons of 'itches come to for the charity i support with time and money), etc. 

last year my little town raised enough funds to pay for their $900k equipment purchase.

Are you under the impression that they don't take anything in taxes? 

Or, apply for stuff like this - Funding and Program Assistance - United States Department of Agriculture ?

[*insertusernamehere*]

I'm surprised at the amount of faith you have in humanity to support this proposition.

[Apoc]

I'm surprised at the amount of faith you have in humanity to support this proposition.

That's the difference. Some people choose to have faith. Some don't. It's pretty closely tied to party affiliation and beliefs in size of government.

I paid over $50k in taxes in 2018, not including property or sales tax, and we don't even have a state income tax. I would do a lot more if I had that money.

A use tax is voluntarily by your choice to purchase said thing. I advocate for the abolition of income tax in favor of use tax.

[Kaan]

Pure Libertarian government is close to the most unreasonable and unlikely form of government. It all sounds great in theory until no one pays shit "voluntarily". Then everyone gets screwed. What would be better is a mix of taxes + less spending on waste-less poop.

Hey bro, you want those power lines to your house? Hehehe, yeah we'll put them to your house with you fronting the bill. Good luck.

Oh, your house is on fire? Sorry, not enough people volunteered money to put it out. We'll put it out if you pay us directly though.

no one paying voluntarily is a societal problem IMHO. volunteering in general (time) is down across the board. 

lets keep the fire department thing going... we write a check once a year to the local fire department (its volunteer) when they send out their mailer. but they also are VERY good at fund raising... events i voluntarily go to... cash party, bbq, raffles, bowling events (which none of you sons of 'itches come to for the charity i support with time and money), etc. 

last year my little town raised enough funds to pay for their $900k equipment purchase.

Are you under the impression that they don't take anything in taxes? 

Or, apply for stuff like this - Funding and Program Assistance - United States Department of Agriculture ?

are you under the impression that I think their budget is 100% tax free? 

the point is, the important things people will support.... the debate is what is important to each person. 

the long and short is... as a society "some people" are okay with doing nothing (or less) themselves and letting the government take whatever the government deems necessary from their checks... and "some people" are not okay with this at all.

[Ken]

Pure Libertarian government is close to the most unreasonable and unlikely form of government. It all sounds great in theory until no one pays shit "voluntarily". Then everyone gets screwed. What would be better is a mix of taxes + less spending on waste-less poop.

Hey bro, you want those power lines to your house? Hehehe, yeah we'll put them to your house with you fronting the bill. Good luck.

Oh, your house is on fire? Sorry, not enough people volunteered money to put it out. We'll put it out if you pay us directly though.

no one paying voluntarily is a societal problem IMHO. volunteering in general (time) is down across the board. 

lets keep the fire department thing going... we write a check once a year to the local fire department (its volunteer) when they send out their mailer. but they also are VERY good at fund raising... events i voluntarily go to... cash party, bbq, raffles, bowling events (which none of you sons of 'itches come to for the charity i support with time and money), etc. 

last year my little town raised enough funds to pay for their $900k equipment purchase.

Are you under the impression that they don't take anything in taxes? 

Or, apply for stuff like this - Funding and Program Assistance - United States Department of Agriculture ?

are you under the impression that I think their budget is 100% tax free? 

the point is, the important things people will support.... the debate is what is important to each person. 

the long and short is... as a society "some people" are okay with doing nothing (or less) themselves and letting the government take whatever the government deems necessary from their checks... and "some people" are not okay with this at all.

No. The point is, this la la land that you all want where taxes aren't collected isn't a fucking reality and you basically just admitted as much. You and Rex tried to use fire departments as an example of people's good will funding a good cause with no need for government intervention and... that's just not true. 

Sorry man, people suck. Taxes suck. But they are necessary.

[Apoc]

If people didn't give voluntarily, GoFundMe wouldn't be as successful as it is.

---

No. The point is, this la la land that you all want where taxes aren't collected isn't a fucking reality and you basically just admitted as much. You and Rex tried to use fire departments as an example of people's good will funding a good cause with no need for government intervention and... that's just not true. 

This is where the critical thinking skills really start to fall apart. They use taxes because that's how they've historically been funded. That does not prove they couldn't exist without taxes. You've made a logical leap that isn't given.

[Kaan]

Best use tax I'm okay with on the record right now... Pittman Robertson Act. Guns/Ammo have an 11% tax to go toward public land acquisition, development, upkeep, etc. to help save the animals and landscapes of this country. Our national and state park systems would crumble without it.

FYI, the "ban guns" crowd need to come up with a solution to save the parks IMHO if they want to ban the guns. See, this stuff isnt simple to solve.

[Ken]

If people didn't give voluntarily, GoFundMe wouldn't be as successful as it is.

---

No. The point is, this la la land that you all want where taxes aren't collected isn't a fucking reality and you basically just admitted as much. You and Rex tried to use fire departments as an example of people's good will funding a good cause with no need for government intervention and... that's just not true. 

This is where the critical thinking skills really start to fall apart. They use taxes because that's how they've historically been funded. That does not prove they couldn't exist without taxes. You've made a logical leap that isn't given.

Using your own logic, the only way to ensure that Libertarianism ACTUALLY works without some form of taxes propping it up is to set you all out on and island and see how it plays out. Otherwise, its impossible to prove that taxes did not provide the foundation of your system.

[Kaan]

Pure Libertarian government is close to the most unreasonable and unlikely form of government. It all sounds great in theory until no one pays shit "voluntarily". Then everyone gets screwed. What would be better is a mix of taxes + less spending on waste-less poop.

Hey bro, you want those power lines to your house? Hehehe, yeah we'll put them to your house with you fronting the bill. Good luck.

Oh, your house is on fire? Sorry, not enough people volunteered money to put it out. We'll put it out if you pay us directly though.

no one paying voluntarily is a societal problem IMHO. volunteering in general (time) is down across the board. 

lets keep the fire department thing going... we write a check once a year to the local fire department (its volunteer) when they send out their mailer. but they also are VERY good at fund raising... events i voluntarily go to... cash party, bbq, raffles, bowling events (which none of you sons of 'itches come to for the charity i support with time and money), etc. 

last year my little town raised enough funds to pay for their $900k equipment purchase.

Are you under the impression that they don't take anything in taxes? 

Or, apply for stuff like this - Funding and Program Assistance - United States Department of Agriculture ?

are you under the impression that I think their budget is 100% tax free? 

the point is, the important things people will support.... the debate is what is important to each person. 

the long and short is... as a society "some people" are okay with doing nothing (or less) themselves and letting the government take whatever the government deems necessary from their checks... and "some people" are not okay with this at all.

No. The point is, this la la land that you all want where taxes aren't collected isn't a fucking reality and you basically just admitted as much. You and Rex tried to use fire departments as an example of people's good will funding a good cause with no need for government intervention and... that's just not true. 

Sorry man, people suck. Taxes suck. But they are necessary.

you are missing the biggest point.... "they" understand that taxes are necessary, the level of taxation and what that tax is spent on is what burns the britches. 

my example is that with peoples good will, big things can happen. true tax free organizations almost dont exist, because of how complicated the tax situation has become. The ONLY one i know off that is 100% community funded is my local food bank. They accept zero money from local, state, or federal programs. that food bank happens to be the primary charity of all the united methodists womens group in our district.

they are moving 15 tons of food a week (minimum)... in a county of 1 million people. and its all volunteers for accepting, moving, etc all the food.

[Apoc]

Or voting Libertarian and building a local government that enacts policies that push us in this direction.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_Project

[Ken]

Or voting Libertarian and building a local government that enacts policies that push us in this direction.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_Project

So this area, would have no roads, no existing power, NOTHING that was initially provided by good ol' fashion tax dollars?

[Apoc]

Or voting Libertarian and building a local government that enacts policies that push us in this direction.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_Project

So this area, would have no roads, no existing power, NOTHING that was initially provided by good ol' fashion tax dollars?

Stop being pedantic. 

You don't have to start from a forest to prove it works. Infrastructure requires a lot of money to upkeep, so it's possible to prove sustainability of the model. Besides, none of us would be starting from scratch since all these things exist anyway.

[Ken]

you are missing the biggest point.... "they" understand that taxes are necessary, the level of taxation and what that tax is spent on is what burns the britches. 

I don't think there is a single person in this thread that would disagree with this. The problem comes when this logic is somehow extended to taxation is now theft and we don't need taxes.

[CaptainHenreh]

Or voting Libertarian and building a local government that enacts policies that push us in this direction.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_Project

So this area, would have no roads, no existing power, NOTHING that was initially provided by good ol' fashion tax dollars?

I can point to a number of historic states where *everything* came from coercion, aka "good ole fashioned tax dollars".


They aren't nice places.

---

you are missing the biggest point.... "they" understand that taxes are necessary, the level of taxation and what that tax is spent on is what burns the britches. 

I don't think there is a single person in this thread that would disagree with this. The problem comes when this logic is somehow extended to taxation is now theft and we don't need taxes.

If taxation is theft, it is immoral. If it is immoral, then the use of said stolen money must be used for an even greater good, or I am wronged twice.

It's more than just "well I don't like when the government wastes money", it's "The citizenry has a moral obligation to keep this theft to a bare minimum and make sure it is spent well."

[rherold9]

I paid over $50k in taxes in 2018

If you are making so much why are you still driving a GTI?

[JPolen01]

I paid over $50k in taxes in 2018

If you are making so much why are you still driving a GTI?

Now we are getting to the hard hitting questions

[Ken]

Or voting Libertarian and building a local government that enacts policies that push us in this direction.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_Project

So this area, would have no roads, no existing power, NOTHING that was initially provided by good ol' fashion tax dollars?

I can point to a number of historic states where *everything* came from coercion, aka "good ole fashioned tax dollars".


They aren't nice places.

---

you are missing the biggest point.... "they" understand that taxes are necessary, the level of taxation and what that tax is spent on is what burns the britches. 

I don't think there is a single person in this thread that would disagree with this. The problem comes when this logic is somehow extended to taxation is now theft and we don't need taxes.

If taxation is theft, it is immoral. If it is immoral, then the use of said stolen money must be used for an even greater good, or I am wronged twice.

It's more than just "well I don't like when the government wastes money", it's "The citizenry has a moral obligation to keep this theft to a bare minimum and make sure it is spent well."

1 - I can point to no states that were founded and run on zero taxes. Because it doesn't work. 

2- You literally just said the same thing in a much more convoluted manner but added in taxation is theft.