Honda Challenge Cars

[D_Eclipse9916]

As all of you know, I love tracking and the gsx is *so close* to being a reliable track car, but it will definitely be an expensive track car to track. I also am approaching the point of no return on the gsx before I throw in a roll bar and start stripping her down.

Ive considered a few options such as buying a 2g shell and throwing all my aftermarket parts on that and returning my original gsx back to "stock" and selling that for a very healthy profit in the 5-6 grand range at least (my car is really low mileage for a 98 gsx.

Or just continuing with this car, I finally have a small turbo on it, and its running great aside from a stupid AN line issue where I keep blowing oil cooler lines, the thing runs awesome. I have a suspension setup being built by a machine shop that will be pretty much the end all be all to suspension setups for a DSM. And I have a daily set of wheels and track wheels in the perfect size and lightweight along with 2 sets of race tires for the thing. Its got all the braking I will ever need with 13x1.1 wilwood 4-pots up front and 12.1 brembo 2 pots in the rear. All new control arms and really doesnt need anything in terms of maintenance aside from figuring out why I keep blowing oil cooler lines.

OR.....after this latest round of break down for this oil cooler line, I realize the GSX platform is a bit rough to race because its A) Heavy B)Expensive in tires and consumables C) Complicated variables such as turbos and engine management systems D)Very little road racing aftermarket support for the platform E) All aero is really an "Experimental" phase/
Now a guy just fielded a gs-t convertible in time-attack and has an insane setup that is just raping time-attack, proving the platform is more than capable, but it seems just like a "supra is capable" (sorry goodspeed) AKA yeah you can make it fast as fuck, but guess what, that means TONS of time and money. Which at this point I really dont feel like I have, im saving for a house this summer/fall and high consumables will mean either no racing or REALLLY tight on the budget to balance racing/house which I dont think is very financially sound.

The GSX is my baby and I never thought I would get rid of it not because I love the platform, but because of sentimental reasons, it was my first car and I have tons of very fond memories in this car. I will definitely miss it, I know that. But..it just may be the right decision. Its an awesome time-attack car with a few more grand and TONS of time could really do well and hang with the big boys, but I kind of like the idea of wheel-to-wheel racing better.

This post is mainly to get a few opinions, and I know you guys dont like the gsx, so ill probably just get tons of posts saying get rid of it, but this is important and im trying to rid myself of my own sentimentals about this car and get real opinions.


Also is HC1 popular, are the s2000s competitive? I have looked at my finances and am considering "something" like this in terms of getting a reliable HPDE that could also run supercomp school and give me an "introduction" to racing. Now im not saying I am gonna buy this, this will be a long decision that if I do decide to rid of the gsx, I probably will be a few months without a "race" car as I decide platforms, but opinions are welcome!
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=27817">http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=27817</a><!-- m -->

[CaptainHenreh]

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w91-GMc3j7I">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w91-GMc3j7I</a><!-- m -->

[G.Irish]

Well what is your ultimate goal is the question you must ask yourself. And how do you want to get there?

I imagine that you're not looking to race just yet, and in that case I'm thinking you'd probably want something streetable that you can get to the track without investing in a truck and trailer. So something with a rollcage/rollbar that can do time attack? I don't know how the classes in time attack work but that should inform your decision if you really wanna do that.

I'd say get something light so it'll be easy on the consumables. I'm thinking maybe a 240 could fit the bill. It sounds like you want something decently fast, so you could pick up a swapped one. Parts are fairly plentiful and you could load it with all your gear or tow a small trailer to get to the track. Maybe an E36 could work too but those are a good deal more unreliable.

[.RJ]

Also is HC1 popular

Its not very well subscribed anymore.

If you're having trouble with the GSX in terms of operating costs and consumables, you definitely dont want something as fast as an S2000. I know its appealing, but it takes a shitload of $$ to keep something like that running competitively if you want to race.

Figure out where you want to race and go from there. Pick whatever class you think you can afford to race in, and then buy something 1 or 2 classes 'slower'. The costs really get out of control.

[Dave]

If you want to W2W I imagine you'll want to do a series that is still growing or has heavy participation, which I don't believe East Coast HC has either of, because you don't want to invest all the money of building the car, only to get slotted into a dead/uncompetitive field.

My vote would be to put the rollbar in the GSX and just keep having fun. If you're going to make a racecar, that will (eventually) also require a tow vehicle and trailer. In my opinion you'll want to rent/own a house (as opposed to an apartment/townhouse) before you do either of those so that you'll the space... Building a racecar isn't cheap by any means, no matter how much you get for your GSX, so keep that in mind too.

If you were me, you'd have a spreadsheet built so you could establish timelines and expenditures to be able to help make things a little easier to evaluate. When you do this and take the emotion out of decision-making, you might be surprised what the most prudent course of action may be.

[JustinG]

im biased and would hate to see you sell the GSX, but if you wanna seriously get into TT/racing, you gotta find a car that has a supported aftermarket for road racing. If you were just gonna AUTO-X/HPDE keep the GSX but tracking it, your not gonna find anything IMO better than a honda or a miata. I cant believe i just said that.

[D_Eclipse9916]

Why do you say an s2000 will be bad on consumables?

My GSX racing would have between 300-350awhp compared to an s2000s 200-220rwhp meaning less speed on the straights and less gas consumed (gas for me is astronomical on track). Also meaning less wear on pads and rotors.

Simple Comparison Consumables:
GSX:
255/40/17 RA1s
13-inch rotors
Wilwood Pads
Oil for engine, transmission, transfer case, rear end
Increased complexity due to turbo, awd, and power.

S2000:
Cheaper Pads
MUCH cheaper rotors (each replacement rotor on the gsx is 153.00, making front rotors alone 306 dollars)
Smaller Tires in diameter, meaning cheaper tires
Oil for engine, transmission rear end (only slightly cheaper)
RWD, light, NA.


Ive considered a corvette but dont want to put one in the wall. I can afford to put a 10-15,000 dollar car in the wall, not a 20-30,000 for a z06. Not scared of the power, my old setup that was slow on the gsx would walk z06s on the front straight. Would also be hella expensive for tires.

[D_Eclipse9916]

If you want to W2W I imagine you'll want to do a series that is still growing or has heavy participation, which I don't believe East Coast HC has either of, because you don't want to invest all the money of building the car, only to get slotted into a dead/uncompetitive field.

My vote would be to put the rollbar in the GSX and just keep having fun. If you're going to make a racecar, that will (eventually) also require a tow vehicle and trailer. In my opinion you'll want to rent/own a house (as opposed to an apartment/townhouse) before you do either of those so that you'll the space... Building a racecar isn't cheap by any means, no matter how much you get for your GSX, so keep that in mind too.

If you were me, you'd have a spreadsheet built so you could establish timelines and expenditures to be able to help make things a little easier to evaluate. When you do this and take the emotion out of decision-making, you might be surprised what the most prudent course of action may be.

Dave you might be right about the s2000 thing in terms of where its competitive, I was just giving an example replacement vehicle that was much easier on consumables, and still enough "oomph" that I wouldnt hate it (just would, once youve had the power, a car that cant reach speed by the end of the stragith that I already have halfway down pits would be rough).

Dave I have done spreadsheets in terms of costs per event and getting the car roll caged, stripped, and maintain the vehicle. (It is a lot to be honest). It also comes down to track time too. I "think" the gsx will be fine once I figure out this issue, but at those power levels and high g-forces, things break, and im getting tired of it. I just want something "stock" in terms of not crazily modified.

The prudent, non-emotional decision is getting rid of the thing. It sucks, but thats why I made this thread. I had been doing some expenditures of the past year and realized it was out of hand, even though I have made money on pretty much every part ive bought and sold.

[.RJ]

Why do you say an s2000 will be bad on consumables?

Because racing is 2-3 times harder on consumables than HPDE use, even at an advanced/instructor pace. The GSX is a quick car, but you havent seen the ugly side of racing on the costs of maintenance - in a tough race on a track thats hard on the car you can burn down a set of tires, brake pads, and burn up a whole bunch of other expensive parts in 1 weekend if you're not managing it well.

Ive considered a corvette but dont want to put one in the wall. I can afford to put a 10-15,000 dollar car in the wall, not a 20-30,000 for a z06. Not scared of the power, my old setup that was slow on the gsx would walk z06s on the front straight. Would also be hella expensive for tires.

You can find a <$20k 'vette but then you run into the same problems. Expensive to operate and nowhere to race.

If you dont want to race, just keep the GSX and use that. When you're ready, sell the DSM, buy something already built for a class that has good participation, and go racing. Wont matter if its "slow" if you're trying to get to T1 before 25 other cars do.

[.RJ]

I "think" the gsx will be fine once I figure out this issue, but at those power levels and high g-forces, things break, and im getting tired of it.

No wai! :lol:

[ScottyB]

you've put so much work into your GSX, i'd hate to see you dump it. however, in light of wanting a house and all the work that comes with that, i'd say stick with the GSX for now, track it some more and enjoy your work and development.

then, get your house and sell the GSX to some young guy like yourself who wants a turnkey fast DSM and hopefully they'll take off and enjoy it. meanwhile, you get yourself a nice, prepped specmiata and a truck and work on your car in your new garage.

i really wanted to say "do the S2000!" but .RJ already put it best. thats going to be an even bigger money pit and this is a time in your life when i'd imagine you want to have as much moola to put away on the side as possible.

[D_Eclipse9916]

Hmm, do people really think the s2000 will be more consumables than the GSX? I dont understand, really I dont. I thought it was in my "high" list of cars that I would replace the gsx with due to cheap maintenance compared to the gsx (im not saying compared to a miata).

Anyone have any experience what they think a (stock) s2000 would go throw through in terms of maintenance? I am assumig all fluids, pads, rotors, filters, tires. But what else typically breaks on those things on track?

List of Track Cars that I thought of, but put off due to reasons listed:
miata - Possible, but I want more power and style
Spec E30- Same thing as miata
e36- Parts are OUTRAGEOUS for the performance, heard spec3 e36s are slower than e30s.
Nothing FWD, out, not even a possibility.
Nothing Turbo, just too many oil lines, vacuum lines, intercooler pipes, etc etc.
Mustang/Camaro- Go through consumables just as much as a gsx, and personally their boats
Corvette- High consumables, although I wouldnt mind too much cause its got the power and reliability
Rare cars- For the reason they are rare and hard to find parts/work on
elise/exige- Just....dont like them..plus they are probably out of my price range for a track car

Anybody can think of any other car?

[.RJ]

Hmm, do people really think the s2000 will be more consumables than the GSX? I dont understand, really I dont.

Consumables and busted shit increases exponentially with speed, plain and simple, and IIRC, you're still running in the intermediate groups for HPDE - you just arent going fast enough to wear things out quickly. If you want to race an S2k it will just get expensive very quickly (assuming that you buy a built car, because building one will also be quite expensive) due to the speed - its in H1 for a reason.

Racing in itself is a pretty expensive venture (average $1000-1200/weekend for an ITA/H4 car running competitively) and then you start throwing more speed on top of it, the costs go even higher. Multiply that by 7-8 weekends a year, a budget for body and mechanical damage, a trailer and a truck payment and you can see where that is going. If you want to race then look hard at what you can afford, because its usually very different from what you want to race. Going slower = spending less on the car and racing = doing more races and usually having more fun. I burned out because it was just costing too much fucking money and I wasnt having that great of a time.

I want more power and style

Do you want power and style or do you want a reliable, fun race/track car? Usually those are fairly exclusive of each other. Things that are cool and fast are going to cost cubic dollars to keep running, like your GSX. Learn from your mistakes :lol:

Do you want to race or continue doing track days?

[G.Irish]

I think a S2000 would be cheaper to run than your GSX but it wouldn't necessarily be "cheap". Then you have to factor in the hassle factor because you'd have to tow a small trailer or put it on the trailer to get it to the track.

From what you've said I don't think you're looking to race this year. Racing something like a S2000 will definitely cost more than what you're paying to track your GSX. As RJ said, once you are really pushing to go fast you will burn stuff a lot faster. You'll flat spot tires, you'll burn through tires in general, gotta pay entry fees etc. Now if you're just doing the occasional time trial it'll be more reasonable to track a S2000. But in that case you might also want to look at a 350Z. It's a little more convenient than the S2K. Maybe an E46 330 could do it for you too but they're a bit heavier and slower than the other two.

It sounds like you want something streetable, fast, and fairly stylish that is RWD/AWD. Something under about 3200 lbs and is relatively convenient.

[Dave]

I think a S2000 would be cheaper to run than your GSX but it wouldn't necessarily be "cheap". Then you have to factor in the hassle factor because you'd have to tow a small trailer or put it on the trailer to get it to the track.

From what you've said I don't think you're looking to race this year. Racing something like a S2000 will definitely cost more than what you're paying to track your GSX. As RJ said, once you are really pushing to go fast you will burn stuff a lot faster. You'll flat spot tires, you'll burn through tires in general, gotta pay entry fees etc. Now if you're just doing the occasional time trial it'll be more reasonable to track a S2000. But in that case you might also want to look at a 350Z. It's a little more convenient than the S2K. Maybe an E46 330 could do it for you too but they're a bit heavier and slower than the other two.

It sounds like you want something streetable, fast, and fairly stylish that is RWD/AWD. Something under about 3200 lbs and is relatively convenient.

The way I see it, if you're gonna do time trials, you'd be silly to even consider a different car over just keeping the GSX and continuing to make it faster and sort it out.

[D_Eclipse9916]

I dont want to do time-trials, thats the point. I want a simple, key word, simple HPDE and "possibly" Wheel-to-wheel car. The S2000 "seemed" like a good choice considering its great placement in AS for autocross, is a convertible for the weekends, and can do great HPDE sessions with just a roll bar, race pads and a set of extra rotors. It also is priced right for around 12 for a decent example that I could put in a wall and not cry about. It also can complete in S2K challenge, H1 honda challenge, and ITR if I ever decide to do that without going to a different racing series (probably at least 2-3 years in the future, at which point it might make sense to retire the s2k because I wont be investing that much money in it and going with a "racing platform")

You all are right in the fact that it might just be smart to keep the gsx for now and invest no more money into it other than maintenance. I wont budge on my "very high asking price" so if its not sold, its not sold. If it sells for it, aside from a few grand for the engine build (which cost of ownership would only be 1-2 grand a year in maintenance/parts if you average it) I will split even. At that point ill then decide what to do, your opinions have helped. Any other simple HPDE/autocross cars you can think of? Factory Five Cobra (high consumables?)

[G.Irish]

Ok, so daily driver/hpde. Yeah in that case the S2000 wouldn't be a bad choice, but again it might be a little bit of a pain on the practicality side. Still, if you're gonna throw a roll bar in there and track it and autocross it, it's not a bad choice. Probably a very good one considering that there are not any cars that are lighter (and make decent power) in that price range.

As far as something that you can turn into a racecar, I wouldn't give that much thought. Just buy something that's already built when you're ready to go racing and save yourself the time and money.

[D_Eclipse9916]

Ok, so daily driver/hpde. Yeah in that case the S2000 wouldn't be a bad choice, but again it might be a little bit of a pain on the practicality side. Still, if you're gonna throw a roll bar in there and track it and autocross it, it's not a bad choice. Probably a very good one considering that there are not any cars that are lighter (and make decent power) in that price range.

As far as something that you can turn into a racecar, I wouldn't give that much thought. Just buy something that's already built when you're ready to go racing and save yourself the time and money.

I got a daily driver, this is weekend/hpde car. :thumbup:

[Goodspeed]

2nd gen N/A MR2? It goes against your anti-rare car criteria a little bit, but they are well within your price range (esp. the NA's), a little bit more power and more style (IMO) than a Miata. Lightweight and probably comparable to a Miata on consumables. I'm not sure what they're classed in for w2w stuff, but I'm sure you could shoehorn it in somewhere.

Maybe Andy can chime on on the +'s and -'s of his experience tracking his car...

[.RJ]

You should look around for roll bars for the S2000, I remember that for a long time there just werent any available due to the hateful install and slight hacking up of the interior required to get one in. It could be a deal breaker right from the start, but they're great cars and getting cheap now. If you get one i'd leave it stock, stock, stock except for safety bits, brake pads and shocks to keep it simple.

As for a factory five, they are surprisingly quite expensive to build. Sounds like a great idea, but the little odds and ends just add up and all the small bits eat your budget alive not to mention the time to do all of the little things (fluid lines, cables, bodywork, etc, etc) - they sell for pretty good money ($25-35k) for a nice one already built with some miles on it for a street/track car.

Next time you hit the track try to go for a ride in some of the faster instructors cars, even something you wouldnt consider buying (miata, fwd, etc) just to get a feel for what else is out there and how it feels on track. If you want something thats a fun car to take out on nice days, weekends, etc then it may narrow things down - a civic hatch with teh vteks would be nice on track, but not too nice to take to work on a sunny day. I would agree a drop top would be good here