A new look at the Hurt Report

[.RJ]

to say that crash rates for those two people are equal would be asinine... the only point i'm making, which rj has a really hard time grasping.

Do you have any statistical evidence for this, or is it just mikey rules?

[Evan]

I'm not sure if that's just stirring the pot, or for argument's sake, or what have you, but it doesn't take much to tie that correlation into causation. It's definitely not a strech.

not stirring any pot.

have you thought about the fact that the people most likely to take a MSF class are also the people who are more likely to ride in a safe manner even absent of any kind of training due to other personal factors?

Its actually harder to believe that some basic motorcycle lessons and drills in a parking lot directly influences the riders ability to avoid a high speed high injury potential accident.

of course, I do neither, so you are welcome to play the "you dont ride" card, but Id be happy to provide some examples of correllation != causation to get your mind thinking that way.

[.RJ]

have you thought about the fact that the people most likely to take a MSF class are also the people who are more likely to ride in a safe manner even absent of any kind of training due to other personal factors?

I dont believe the MSF training provides you with the skill to ride safer on the streets right away, unless you need to safely do a u-turn in a box. I think it helps you learn the basic skills to getting started on the street and the rest is up to you - and getting start off on the right foot without a bunch of bad habits goes a long way down the road.

Its definitely not a cure-all for riding errors or falling off.

[Mike]

to say that crash rates for those two people are equal would be asinine... the only point i'm making, which rj has a really hard time grasping.

Do you have any statistical evidence for this, or is it just mikey rules?

i suppose it would be common sense. i guess you lack that...

[Evan]

have you thought about the fact that the people most likely to take a MSF class are also the people who are more likely to ride in a safe manner even absent of any kind of training due to other personal factors?

I dont believe the MSF training provides you with the skill to ride safer on the streets right away, unless you need to safely do a u-turn in a box. I think it helps you learn the basic skills to getting started on the street and the rest is up to you - and getting start off on the right foot without a bunch of bad habits goes a long way down the road.

Its definitely not a cure-all for riding errors or falling off.

you're kind of agreeing with me.

a rider who has no interest or concern in being safe isnt going to be changed by the MSF, hence requiring the MSF for all riders isnt going to change the statistics.

this reminds me of a book Im reading right now Freakonomics.
in it, they talk about
a study that showed children who had many books in their home was a positive indicator of test results. If you follow the causation line of reasoning, then having the books in the house simply made the kids smarter. But the real reason behind it was that kids brought up in an environment where learning and knowledge is important are more likely to score higher. The books are an indicator of that environment.

similarly, I think taking the MSF is an indicator of a rider who wants to ride safe, not the cause of it.

[Mike]

right. you're getting at something a bit different, but the point is the same.

edit: freakonomics rules... i'm surprised it's taken you this long to get around to it. it's a very "evan" book

[.RJ]

i suppose it would be common sense. i guess you lack that...

Well at least you can resort to personal attacks when you run out of logical things to say. Well done.

you're kind of agreeing with me.

a rider who has no interest or concern in being safe isnt going to be changed by the MSF, hence requiring the MSF for all riders isnt going to change the statistics.

Sort of - I get the freaknomics reference, its a good point.

Will it cure someone who is going to be unsafe on a bike no matter what? Of course not. But IMO, it can provide a positive influence to safe riding especially if new riders are taking the course - I think I'm better off for it. Someone learning how to ride by taking the MSF is certainly more likely to ride safe than learning to ride with his squid buddies - but that goes back to the correlation argument - if nothing else it would make for an interesting social study.

[Mike]

i suppose it would be common sense. i guess you lack that...

Well at least you can resort to personal attacks when you run out of logical things to say. Well done.

When you're unwilling to use common sense, there isn't much left for me to say. Evan put it more eloquently and seemed to get through to you... I thank him for that.

[.RJ]

Evan put it more eloquently and seemed to get through to you... I thank him for that.

Just because I get what he's saying, doesnt mean i agree with him - and he's not making opinionated generalizations to suit himself either.

[Apoc]

[this reminds me of a book Im reading right now Freakonomics.

Do I get credit for that recommendation? :wink:

That's definitely a book everyone should read.

[Mike]

Evan put it more eloquently and seemed to get through to you... I thank him for that.

Just because I get what he's saying, doesnt mean i agree with him - and he's not making opinionated generalizations to suit himself either.

oh

[.RJ]

That's definitely a book everyone should read.

+1

[Evan]

<offtopic>

edit: freakonomics rules... i'm surprised it's taken you this long to get around to it. it's a very "evan" book

hahah Im not sure what "Evan book " means other than its nonfiction. I figured you guys thought I sat around reading sean hannity and anne coulter or something!

Do I get credit for that recommendation? :wink:

That's definitely a book everyone should read.

Im actually not in love with it so far. Like i mentioned earlier it gets you to think in other ways which is very important, and Ive always thought the world revolves around incentives, which is the books central theme. But there is too much fluff. The ku klux klan thing was a huge segment and had very little point applicable to anything.
The abortion thing blew my mind but he dragged it out too long too.

</offtopic>

[Kaan]

go to any squid meet anywhere... as to see their "M"... those that ride more recklessly will proabaly not have their "M" .... statistaclly the majority of motorcycle actually dont have a license to ride!

you will also see people that took that MSF to heart... well at least the rules... they will be in long sleeve shirts, pants, and boots... then there is the group that paid more attention and actually has gear... then there are riders that have just been around a while and have the mind set that they have thousands of miles under their belt with no accidents and dont need gear...

I took the APEX class... i paid for the convience. but it was a good class even for me, who had ridden before.

and making people take the class on their motorcycles is retarded... but it might force people to ride motorcycles that are more rider friendly at first or at least borrow one! lol.

[G.Irish]

have you thought about the fact that the people most likely to take a MSF class are also the people who are more likely to ride in a safe manner even absent of any kind of training due to other personal factors?

I dont believe the MSF training provides you with the skill to ride safer on the streets right away, unless you need to safely do a u-turn in a box. I think it helps you learn the basic skills to getting started on the street and the rest is up to you - and getting start off on the right foot without a bunch of bad habits goes a long way down the road.

Its definitely not a cure-all for riding errors or falling off.

Well the MSF teaches you defensive riding skills, how to avoid target fixation, what to do when the rear is locked, how to handle the bike at low speeds, how to make emergency stops and the basics on how to get around a corner. Without those skills you open yourself to a wide variety of mishap.

To really learn how to get around a corner and get the most out of your brakes and everything you'd need a high performance school but just having the basics makes it a lot easier to operate a bike safely. I know if I didn't know some of the stuff from MSF I probably would have made some stupid low to medium speed mistakes by now.

Correlation does not always equal causation but given what is taught in the MSF its fairly likely that the training itself does reduce your chances of being in an accident. Perhaps a more detailed study could go into what specific skill deficiencies lead to accidents.

[Ginger]

I don't lack the ability to think that way I hadn't thought of your point, and it's a good one. I wouldn't credit everything to that relationship, but I would credit some. Something else to consider is that new riders are also very impressionable.

I know somebody recently who saw me doing stupid stuff in his first month of riding and became a much dumber rider for it. Before he saw me doing said stupid activity he wasn't remotely interested in riding like a tard. I'm not trying to flatter myself and say I had that much off an influence being me - but I think new riders take cues from a lot of places as to what's OK.