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+--- Thread: A new look at the Hurt Report (/showthread.php?tid=6398)
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A new look at the Hurt Report - .RJ - 09-10-2007
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Reading now....
- .RJ - 09-10-2007
The more things change, the more they stay the same....
Quote:Efforts to reduce fatalities and serious injuries should focus on rider skill and rider behavior. In 2004, 86% of the fatalities had not taken the stateÔÇÖs training course.
Because I like to stir the pot...
Mike Wrote:someone who wants to learn to ride (am i suddenly going to become biaggi after this weekend at the msf?), has their head scewed on fairly tight, and almost has a full set of gear does not have the wrong attitude. do you see me flying through traffic at triple digit speeds? no, i'm going the speed limit (or slower) on pretty straight roads.
- Ginger - 09-10-2007
The study seems spot on , but their proposed solutions suck.
"More state training!" They address the additional cost of state training by suggesting that riders use their own bikes for the course (I'd like to see RJ pass on his F4i, Paul on his FJR, or my Dad on his Harley try it), that subsidies be increased, and that motorcycle registration costs be increased. Fucking brilliant!
Why not just make motorcycle training mandatory and let private courses make up the difference?
- .RJ - 09-10-2007
Its not perfect, but I think its a step in the right direction to make the training better and increase awareness.
- G.Irish - 09-10-2007
More state training is actually a great idea on some fronts. I think the most important thing they touched on was the availability/wait times of the MSF. In Northern VA the wait is several months which probably puts a lot of people off. They need to increase the capacity so that more people are able to take the class in a reasonable amount of time.
I wouldn't recommend people taking the MSF on their own bikes just because you don't really want people getting torpedoed by errant Hayabusas or having to pry broken bodies from under 600 lb Harleys. Maybe it would be good to have people do a MSF session after the initial 2 days with their own bike. Throttle actuator malfunction is just so much more dangerous with big bikes and big power.
One thing I was kind of curious about is what types of bikes the riders were on when they got in accidents. But then again maybe its just as well that they don't look into that because then it could start up that whole movement to restrict bike performance again.
- Evan - 09-10-2007
.RJ Wrote:The more things change, the more they stay the same....correlation != causation.
Quote:In 2004, 86% of the fatalities had not taken the stateÔÇÖs training course.
- .RJ - 09-10-2007
G.Irish Wrote:They need to increase the capacity so that more people are able to take the class in a reasonable amount of time.
Thats a catch-22 - there's already MSF classes almost every weekend at a few NVCC campuses from spring until fall so where do you more, and who can you get to staff them? I'm sure the instructors get paid, but they are still giving up their weekend to teach the course.
- .RJ - 09-10-2007
Evan Wrote:correlation != causation
When the correlation has been proven several times over the past 30 years, how is it not?
Rider training reduces fatal accidents. You immediately put yourself in a higher risk category by not getting any training and jumping on a bike.
- Ginger - 09-10-2007
Evan Wrote:.RJ Wrote:The more things change, the more they stay the same....correlation != causation.
Quote:In 2004, 86% of the fatalities had not taken the stateÔÇÖs training course.
I'm not sure if that's just stirring the pot, or for argument's sake, or what have you, but it doesn't take much to tie that correlation into causation. It's definitely not a strech.
Speaking on wait times - last time I checked there were little to no wait times for APEX or other private education courses... fancy that.
- CaptainHenreh - 09-10-2007
Except apex is like 350 dollars.
- Ginger - 09-10-2007
CaptainHenreh Wrote:Except apex is like 350 dollars.
Should you be gifted free/cheap training? The price is precisely why there's little to no wait. Value is on the margin, after all. Are we measuring life on the opportunity cost of a $100 course? Or maybe just tell Johnny that he can't ride his R1 until he completes a course. Period. And make the penalty more severe when he inevitably breaks the law.
- .RJ - 09-10-2007
asteele2 Wrote:Speaking on wait times - last time I checked there were little to no wait times for APEX or other private education courses... fancy that.
CaptainHenreh Wrote:Except apex is like 350 dollars.
Whats that I hear... paying for convenience? :wink:
- Mike - 09-10-2007
.RJ Wrote:The more things change, the more they stay the same....
Quote:Efforts to reduce fatalities and serious injuries should focus on rider skill and rider behavior. In 2004, 86% of the fatalities had not taken the stateÔÇÖs training course.
Because I like to stir the pot...
Mike Wrote:someone who wants to learn to ride (am i suddenly going to become biaggi after this weekend at the msf?), has their head scewed on fairly tight, and almost has a full set of gear does not have the wrong attitude. do you see me flying through traffic at triple digit speeds? no, i'm going the speed limit (or slower) on pretty straight roads.
:?: those numbers were well known before making that statement.
the attitude of someone who has no plans on ever taking the msf and the attitude of someone who is on a wait list for it are VERY different.
- Ginger - 09-10-2007
The report really didn't say anything about attitude. It also didn't say anything about careening about at triple digit speeds. It pretty clearly shows lack of training... I'm pretty sure nobody else fancied themselves the accident type. You can't will yourself into proper training.
Ninja Edit: And I'm pretty sure the training statistic has gotten worse since Hurt.
- .RJ - 09-10-2007
Mike Wrote:those numbers were well known before making that statement.
Just stirring the pot...
Mike Wrote:the attitude of someone who has no plans on ever taking the msf and the attitude of someone who is on a wait list for it are VERY different.
Not if someone chooses to ride regardless.
- Mike - 09-10-2007
.RJ Wrote:Not if someone chooses to ride regardless.
I disagree.
Type #1, the guy waiting for training is just... waiting. He knows he needs training and clearly shows his head is screwed on straight.
Type #2, guy saying "fuck training." Ignores warnings such as the Hurt report, is much more likely to ride like a retard.
You can argue if you'd like... I know it's what you like to do, but you're wrong regardless of what you say. You know there are clearly two types of riders out there.
- Ginger - 09-10-2007
Nobody's saying that you have to ride like a retard to crash. That's obviously not the case. The statement is that formal training decreases your chances of an accident - you're really not in a position to dispute that.
Another Ninja Edit: I think there are far more than 2 types of riders... and I think each is it's own little special risk group. Ideally they'd receive specialized training. But because we're likely to become one of several different minority groups throughout our riding careers that's largely impractical.
- .RJ - 09-10-2007
Mike Wrote:you're wrong regardless of what you say
Rider training reduces accidents. Period. There's no distinction between people who were "waiting" or "wanted to" get training, its either a yes or no. Pretty simple to me, but you can rationalize it however you want.
- BLINGMW - 09-10-2007
asteele2 Wrote:Why not just make motorcycle training mandatory and let private courses make up the difference?
sounds good to me :thumbup:
- Mike - 09-10-2007
if you're talking strictly from a statistics point of view, yes.
yes andrew, there are more types of riders than two... i was simply saying of riders who have not gone through training, there are clearly (at least) two. the one who shrugs it off and thinks he's invincible, and the guy who is waiting for class to begin. to say that crash rates for those two people are equal would be asinine... the only point i'm making, which rj has a really hard time grasping.