Who is the crazy one?

white_2kgt · 08-14-2007, 01:20 PM

Right, you just made my point.

The same MINIMUM requirements.

.RJ · 08-14-2007, 01:23 PM

white_2kgt Wrote:Right, you just made my point.

The same MINIMUM requirements.

Thats still equal equipment for both driver/passenger.... at least, IMO. If you've got seats/belts, regardless of how "good" they are, so should the passenger.

Those are from the 'HPDE' section of the CCR. If you're not taking passengers, then there's obviously no issue with what equipment is, or isnt on the passenger side.

**Mike** · 08-14-2007, 01:24 PM

chad, why does it have to be in the ccr? are you really going to go out there and argue it? you'd lose.

Evan · 08-14-2007, 02:03 PM

white_2kgt Wrote:Then show me the rules for the club you are talking about. Several other 'clubs' reference the NASA CCR if they don't then they don't have much in the way of rules anyway. I realize NASA isn't the only game in town, but they are pretty much the only other game in town with decent rules. Correct the MA region requires rollover protection in verts where the CCR does not but they publish that in the supps for each event, I have never seen in the supps a requirement for EQUAL driver/passenger protection, please if you have one, post it, don't just quote rules that don't exist.

you're so dense its hilarious Chad.

Evan Wrote:some unofficial, some official, but almost always enforced by the instructor.

Ive been instructing for a long time, with a lot of different clubs, and Im telling you how it works.
Sometimes its in the event guidelines. Sometimes its in the tech form (like mda <a class="postlink" href="http://www.mazdadrivers.com/07_forms/07_MDA_technical_inspection_form.htm">http://www.mazdadrivers.com/07_forms/07 ... n_form.htm</a>)
sometimes its not explicitly stated in docs but communicated to students and instructors verbally and up to instructors discretion (Carguys)

i cant even figure out what you are arguing over, the fact is, if a student shows up without equal restraints he may not have an instructor or get sent home. Doesnt usually happen, but it can.

Ive gotten out of a students car twice for him not having proper saftey equipment for me. (and made them change or move things at least a half dozen times) And it didnt matter one bit if there was official verbage in the regulations or not. If those students tried to argue (they didnt), like mikey said, they would lose. Period.

white_2kgt · 08-14-2007, 03:59 PM

lol, I love it, you guys just make up rules as you go along.
RJ, no it does NOT mean equal restraints, it clearly says passenger must meet the MINIMUM required of the driver, race seats and harnesses are NOT required.

**Mike** · 08-14-2007, 04:02 PM

making up rules? maybe we've listened in classroom and gone through instructor training?

read the rules however you want... the bottom line is that it is up to an instructor whether or not he feels safe getting in to a car. equal equipment is heavily weighed in this evaluation.

are you really just arguing semantics? because that's a lot of fun and worth everybody's time!

.RJ · 08-14-2007, 04:05 PM

white_2kgt Wrote:RJ, no it does NOT mean equal restraints, it clearly says passenger must meet the MINIMUM required of the driver, race seats and harnesses are NOT required.

Did you miss this part?

Quote:11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses
The seatbelts should be in good condition. No damage may be present on the seatbelts and they must be the factory configuration. Any harness or any restraint system, other than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5, in all respects* except for the expiration regulations. Harnesses that are expired for racing may be used providing that they are in at least very good condition. The use of a lap belt without any shoulder restraint is not permitted. Passenger seatbelts must meet the same minimum requirements per the CCR as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger. Note passenger equipment need not match the installed equipment on the driverÔÇÖs side. *Aftermarket DOT-certified belt sets, installed to the manufacturerÔÇÖs specifications may be allowed. Proof of DOT certification and proper installation is the driverÔÇÖs responsibility.

If you have harnesses on the driver side, then the passenger side must have 'em too, even if they its the "minimum" $80 latch-n-link 5-point belt.

So no they dont have to be identical, but if you've upped the "equipment" for the driver side, the passenger side needs to meet the same standard.

Interpret it how you want, but what I'm saying is the interpretation we get from the event officials - not just nasa, but other clubs as well and Evan and I have instructed for a "few" clubs in the area.

Apoc · 08-14-2007, 04:42 PM

He's right RJ. All it says is that what's required for the driver is required for the passenger. In other words, the bare minimum for driver is the bare minimum for the passenger. It does NOT say that the passenger has to have to same.

Basically if the driver is required to have ABC then the passenger is required to have ABC. If the driver upgrades to DEF then the passenger is still only required to have ABC because that is the minimum requirement for the driver.

.RJ · 08-14-2007, 04:44 PM

Apoc Wrote:In other words, the bare minimum for driver is the bare minimum for the passenger. It does NOT say that the passenger has to have to same.

Thats what I'm sayin'.... and Evan, and Mikey as well. Driver can have a $$ racetech seat, hans, eleventy point belts... and the passenger side can have a $200 corbeau seat and $80 latch-n-link belts. Thats ok.

This is clearly not allowed:

white_2kgt Wrote:lol, 'unwritten' != required. Of course, if an instructor doesn't feel comfortable getting in a students car then he has the right to refuse, but it's not against the 'rules' for a student to have a bling seat and harnesses and leave the instructor w/ a stock seat and belts. It does say something about the student if they show up with a setup like that.

Which was the point all along that Chad is missing.

Apoc · 08-14-2007, 04:45 PM

.RJ Wrote:This is clearly not allowed:

white_2kgt Wrote:lol, 'unwritten' != required. Of course, if an instructor doesn't feel comfortable getting in a students car then he has the right to refuse, but it's not against the 'rules' for a student to have a bling seat and harnesses and leave the instructor w/ a stock seat and belts. It does say something about the student if they show up with a setup like that.

Which was the point all along that Chad is missing.

It is allowed if stock seats and belts are all that's required for the driver.

.RJ · 08-14-2007, 04:47 PM

Apoc Wrote:It is allowed if stock seats and belts are all that's required of the driver.

Unless the driver has upgraded equipment. Again.... if it aint stock, it has to conform to the [minimum requirements of the] other section in the rulebook.

Quote:[i]11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses... Any harness or any restraint system, other than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5, in all respects* ...

.RJ · 08-14-2007, 04:48 PM

I hope the point hasnt been lost that neither Apoc or Chad have done any instructing with NASA, or any other group?

**Mike** · 08-14-2007, 04:49 PM

chad did instruct with r32 club, but yeah, he has received no formal instruction, which i think is huge...

.RJ · 08-14-2007, 04:53 PM

1 event? Ok...

Apoc · 08-14-2007, 04:53 PM

.RJ Wrote:
Apoc Wrote:It is allowed if stock seats and belts are all that's required of the driver.

Unless the driver has upgraded equipment. Again.... if it aint stock, it has to conform to the [minimum requirements of the] other section in the rulebook.

Quote:[i]11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses... Any harness or any restraint system, other than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5, in all respects* ...

Why does what the driver has matter? No where in the rules does it say that? It just says IF it's upgraded, it has to conform. It doesn't say IF the driver is upgraded the passenger has to be upgraded. I see the point you're trying to make... that modifying the driver "resets" the minimum of what's required but I don't agree with that interpretation. You could argue ambiguity either way. Now what's practiced versus what's written is two different things... but we're just talking about written rules.

**Mike** · 08-14-2007, 04:53 PM

.RJ Wrote:1 event? Ok...

you KNOW he was going to say "yes I have!"

**Mike** · 08-14-2007, 04:55 PM

Apoc Wrote:
.RJ Wrote:
Apoc Wrote:It is allowed if stock seats and belts are all that's required of the driver.

Unless the driver has upgraded equipment. Again.... if it aint stock, it has to conform to the [minimum requirements of the] other section in the rulebook.

Quote:[i]11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses... Any harness or any restraint system, other than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5, in all respects* ...

Why does what the driver has matter? No where in the rules does it say that? It just says IF it's upgraded, it has to conform. It doesn't say IF the driver is upgraded the passenger has to be upgraded. I see the point you're trying to make... that modifying the driver "resets" the minimum of what's required but I don't agree with that interpretation.

interpret all you want! shit, i learned this 5 years ago at my first event... when a driver has a certain level of safety equipment, he might be more comfortable pushing the car just a bit more... that sucks when his instructor is not as safe as he is so it's an unwritten rule that that's how it must be. if an instructor wants to get in to a car with less equipment, that's his call. if they're close, i'd let it slide, but if my students rolls up with full equipment and i'm sitting in a stock seat with stock belts? fuggetaboutit.

really, what are you two arguing here? that it isn't written? who fucking cares? you win! it's isn't written... christ.

.RJ · 08-14-2007, 04:57 PM

Apoc Wrote:Why does what the driver has matter? No where in the rules does it say that? It just says IF it's upgraded, it has to conform. It doesn't say IF the driver is upgraded the passenger has to be upgraded.

Quote:11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses... Passenger seatbelts must meet the same minimum requirements per the CCR as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger

Apoc Wrote:I don't agree with that interpretation.

Well, disagree all you want, thats not how almost every group I've instructed with interprets it. The chrome is leaking into your brain.

Apoc · 08-14-2007, 04:57 PM

Well duhhhh... it's just bad form not to protect your instructor but Chad was debating requirements... not what makes us warm and fuzzy.

Evan said it was required, Chad disputed that. Based on the written rule, I think Chad is right.

Apoc · 08-14-2007, 05:00 PM

.RJ Wrote:Well, disagree all you want, thats not how almost every group I've instructed with interprets it. The chrome is leaking into your brain.

You were also instructing before you'd even completed any sort of instructor training so it's obvious that guidelines don't mean shit... especially in NASA. (I could list infitnite examples)

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