Where is Evan?

[ScottyB]

wow Evan congrats on the sponsorship. that's big news indeed. of course after your performance on the track this year i'd say it's well deserved. 3rd engine? i thought those things were bulletproof?

the great hate

oh my goodness can we seriously call this day by that official title from now on? it has an epic ring to it that flows off the tongue. "yeah i was there on that day. The Great Hate....we flamed alot of good men that day, the posts rained down without mercy. God, i can still hear them typing"

[BLAIR]

goodluck with the racing .. sorry to not see your posts on here anymore ..

[Dave]

see this is what happens when we don't have our Evan around. He spreads the hate out evenly over a period of time, instead of it all piling up and boiling over like today. Evan, come back, we need you. :-)

[JustinG]

yea good luck, i may not be to far behind you...

[Mike]

yea good luck, i may not be to far behind you...

stop itttt

[JustinG]

im addicted i cant leave

[NTIman]

It's good to see that you're doing alright Evan. At least we know that the hate is still there.

Also, thanks for posting a decent post, I never thought that the post that actually has the least amount of actual hate would come from Evan. If everyone could manage to put together well thought out posts like that, threads wouldn't get locked.

[G.Irish]

First of all in case people don't know, the reason I didn't post during the "Great Hate" is because I was at Sebring and didn't have much internet access (or time). I guess I sort of set things in motion by calling Aaron out on the secret forum thing, which was not common knowledge for many of you. In the end though we need to be open and upfront about things in the club while being respectful of people. We're going to disagree from time to time but we don't need it to turn into animosity and hatred.

A while ago Gerald deleted a post of mine that he didnt like (that, believe it or not, was not an insult). Given that this is a community of friends who are all equals, I will not participate in the forum when someone gets false 'authority' to decide at their whim what I get to say or not. So as a result I do not post on the forums.

That's the thing, the person who you were making fun of or whatever was not your friend, he was someone new. People that know you understand you don't mean harm but how is someone who has never met you going to know the same? The students have complained on more than one occassion that new people either get derided or flamed when they come here and as a result they don't come back.

For the record it was this thread, and your post was something to the effect of, 'We don't do ricer-bling-stunna-big-wing shows dawg. And if you read the picture at the top of the page it says Madison Motorsports'. The point had already been made about the intents and purposes of the club without the snarky, sarcastic jab.

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I deleted your post and PM'ed you rather than drawing the new guy's thread into yet another useless argument over what we do in the club. I did so because I wasn't trying to call you out in public.

And your response was:

dont delete my posts. its a joke, and if he cant take it, then fuck him.

And several PM's later you finished with:

but im done, im not going to look over my shoulder and wonder if Gerald approves of my posts. You can have your bling forum, oh defender of the ricers and douchebags.

If it was truly just about the principle of moderation on this forum, why in your parting shot did it suddenly become about me defending people that you consider ricers and douchebags? Just because a new guy was interested in car shows and was asking us if we went to that type of thing, how does it make him a ricer or a douchebag?

Not everyone who becomes interested in the club has even been exposed to the stuff we do, but once shown the light some choose become a part of our motorsport fold in one way or another. Others don't and that's ok, this club is not for everybody. But if people who are genuinely curious get met with derision and hate they're not going to stick around to join us.

And no I did not just delete your post on a 'whim', like somehow I go around deleting posts for no reason. There are lots of things I don't like on this forum but out of over 113000 posts I've deleted less than 10 so its not like I'm out to censor people and delete everything I disagree with.

You may not like the concept that this forum is moderated but it is attached to MM and to people who haven't met many of us in person it represents the club. And we don't need to be representing hostility to new people. Its not fair to current members, potential future members, nor any of the officers who have put in a lot of effort to recruit new people.

You may disagree with 'authority' around here and that's your choice. But the student leadership was reluctant to moderate alumni and I stepped up to become a mod again. Maybe we need to have a vote for who should be moderator and who shouldn't if people have a problem with who is a moderator.

[ScottyB]

And we don't need to be representing hostility to new people.

it amazes me how difficult this can be, year after year.

[HAULN-SS]

can I be a moderator? </sarcasm>

[NTIman]

Glad I don't take sides on stuff like this most of the time.

[Evan]

That's the thing, the person who you were making fun of or whatever was not your friend, he was someone new.

you are 100% wrong Gerald, as I mentioned, I did not make an insult. I made a generic tease on car shows in general

Im floored that you would post the specifics of a private conversation public. To take a private conversation public is without a doubt the biggest bullshit move I have ever seen you pull. For someone who tries to come across as taking the high road you couldnt get any lower. To take my statements out of context just to make me look bad is a whole new level of slime.

And no I did not just delete your post on a 'whim', like somehow I go around deleting posts for no reason.

Then please quote the forum guidelines that outline the post policy? FACT: you didnt like a post, so you deleted it. This I disagree with, and so I left without drama. No big deal, no bitching, not really any hard feelings, just no more forums.
And now you dredge this up, bring private conversation to slander me, and make it personal.

And we don't need to be representing hostility to new people.

for the last motherfucking time, I was not hostile. at all, so get off the bullshit train.

and I stepped up to become a mod again. Maybe we need to have a vote for who should be moderator and who shouldn't if people have a problem with who is a moderator.

how many moderators do we have? 15? for about 25 regular posters? thats retarded.

The MM forums are not the regular car forums that we have all grown accustomed to as part of the car culture. It is a forum based on real life interactions and thus represents those in person relationships in an electronic manner. To assign an authority level without any guidelines or terms is completely unacceptable.

Its interesting that between this, and the great hate, there have been many many problems that have gone from fairly obvious to neon sign in the road, but instead of thinking of ways to solve them, you blame other people.

Why are potential members coming to forums instead of meetings?
If nurturing potential members on the forums is so important, then why isnt there a FAQ section? A introduction section?
why isnt the lounge section locked down until someone goes to a meeting or joins?
You blame me for making a passing joke on carshows as being unwelcoming, yet YOU are the one who isnt willing to put any sort of thought or effort into solving the problems at hand.

[Goodspeed]

If nurturing potential members on the forums is so important, then why isnt there a FAQ section? A introduction section?

Thats a very good point, I have always thought that there should be one. I think I brought the idea up at some point but for whatever reason it wasn't adopted. We should def. add this to the forum, maybe an intro/FAQ combined forums.

[G.Irish]

That's the thing, the person who you were making fun of or whatever was not your friend, he was someone new.

you are 100% wrong Gerald, as I mentioned, I did not make an insult. I made a generic tease on car shows in general

So the line about 'if you didn't notice it says Madison Motorsports' wasn't directed at him?

Im floored that you would post the specifics of a private conversation public. To take a private conversation public is without a doubt the biggest bullshit move I have ever seen you pull. For someone who tries to come across as taking the high road you couldnt get any lower. To take my statements out of context just to make me look bad is a whole new level of slime.

Well since you took it upon yourself to say I was acting on some 'false authority' and that was the reason you left the forum you were taking it public. The whole reason I PM'd you in the first place is because I thought you could be reasonable about it but instead you got all angry with me and left the forum over it. Why wasn't your response to post in the Site Suggestions forum that we need forum guidelines?

If you didn't want to get called out then you shouldn't have brought me into this. If you feel your statements were out of context feel free to post the entire conversation. Bottom line is that your attitude started with 'Fuck him if he can't take a joke' and that you ended by accusing me of protecting ricers and douchebags.

And no I did not just delete your post on a 'whim', like somehow I go around deleting posts for no reason.

Then please quote the forum guidelines that outline the post policy? FACT: you didnt like a post, so you deleted it. This I disagree with, and so I left without drama. No big deal, no bitching, just no more forums.
And now you dredge this up, bring private conversation to slander me, and make it personal.

That's a valid point and we are going to come up with forum guidelines. In the past we didn't think they were needed but obviously they are. We are also coming up with guidelines for moderator action.

Slander is for me to say something that is not true about you. You most certainly did say those things. Again if you feel that the rest of the conversation would change the meaning of what you said feel free to clarify.

And we don't need to be representing hostility to new people.

for the last motherfucking time, I was not hostile. at all, so get off the bullshit train.

Maybe you just don't realize how it appears to people who don't know you but when you start making fun of people like that what are they supposed to think?

Why is it that more than one person here expected you to be posting hateful things in here? Could it possibly be because that you've been hostile in the past? Or is it just that everyone is lying and unfairly characterizing some of your posts? You yourself said that you've been hostile to noobs in the past. Maybe you didn't mean that post to be hostile, fine. Maybe I made a mistake in deleting it, that's fine too. But there's no reason for you to be getting all bent out of shape and angry now over one post.

If the issue was that there needs to be forum guidelines, then make it about forum guidelines. You instead focused on being angry that someone dared to delete your post.

and I stepped up to become a mod again. Maybe we need to have a vote for who should be moderator and who shouldn't if people have a problem with who is a moderator.

how many moderators do we have? 15? for about 25 regular posters? thats retarded.

We have 8 moderators, 3 of whom don't post here very often. As I said, maybe we need to have a vote for mods.

The MM forums are not the regular car forums that we have all grown accustomed to as part of the car culture. It is a forum based on real life interactions and thus represents those in person relationships in an electronic manner. To assign an authority level without any guidelines or terms is completely unacceptable.

Again if that is the issue I would agree that we need to have guidelines.

Its interesting that between this, and the great hate, there have been many many problems that have gone from fairly obvious to neon sign in the road, but instead of thinking of ways to solve them, you blame other people.

I didn't say you were solely responsible for some of the unfriendliness but you have certainly done some of it. And I'm not sitting around coming up with people to blame for the clubs woes and you know that. Where am I blaming other people for the club's problems?

Why are potential members coming to forums instead of meetings?
If nurturing potential members on the forums is so important, then why isnt there a FAQ section? A introduction section?

I've brought these things up before, as a matter of fact I brought this up when the whole separate forum idea was first discussed.

Even then, for people who are looking to join a group the natural thing is for them to come check out the forum to see if they fit in. Especially people who've found us on the internet. Maybe it would do us well to lay off the sarcasm and flaming and what not for new people? Or am I just imagining that the forum has become unfriendly to noobs?

You blame me for making a passing joke on carshows as being unwelcoming, yet YOU are the one who isnt willing to put any sort of thought or effort into solving the problems at hand.

For you to even begin to say I am not willing to put any sort of thought or effort into solving the problems at hand is preposterous. I've stayed involved with the student leadership every year since Chan and I started this club to try to help them out and give them guidance on whatever issue is at hand. I'm not out to try to control the club so I largely don't interfere with the officers unless they're specifically asking for input on something or to give input on an idea they're having. I do try to push to get events done or to get stuff started early or to set goals.

The truth is I've given a lot of thought of why this forum sometimes descends into a bunch of useless bickering and hate. For most of this forum's history it hasn't been moderated very much at all but the tone has progressively worsened over the years. We're sort of turning into the obstinate, insular, unfriendly group of old guys that we've encountered in the past at some SCCA events or in other car clubs.

Not everyone knows everyone anymore. We shouldn't have to be constantly making disclaimers to new people about, "People are not as mean as they seem, you have to get to know them." I'm not saying we can't joke on each other or whatever but we have to be better with new people.

When it became apparent that the students were becoming increasingly frustrated with the tone of the forum John and some of the other moderators started moderating more aggressively. People also started stepping up and calling people out for being rude or flaming people. The next step is forum guidelines and maybe a mod/admin vote. If people vote that I don't have mod privileges anymore I'll gladly renounce them.

At the end of the day I and others here would like you to continue posting here.

[.paul]

TAKE IT TO THE TRACK!

[white_2kgt]

So if evan insults me at the track is gerald going to delete his words?

It's time to wake up and realize that 99% of the people here know someone or more than just _someone_ in real life. This forum is an extension of that, I haven't seen much posted on this forum that wouldn't actually be said face to face. If you guys want to have a nice friendly PC forum for n00bs to come and ohh and ahh over get over it, it ain't going to happen, that's what the meetings are for, you can continue to delete post and ban people and piss people off and in the end you will get the PC forum you want, just void of any recent posts.

I'm not going to go back and forth with anyone on this, as I've already been warned that if I continue to 'shit up the forum' I will be banned, again :roll:

[.RJ]

Chad, you have to realize that there's a significant difference between joking around and something thats downright hateful - and when it gets to that point, yes they ought to be deleted because it doesnt put a good face on our club if new or potential members are reading stuff like that. I dont know if Evan's post should have been deleted or not, but we're all friends here and everyone can get over it. Are you going to defend Kaan too, because some of his drunken posts got deleted?

[white_2kgt]

Chad, you have to realize that there's a significant difference between joking around and something thats downright hateful - and when it gets to that point, yes they ought to be deleted because it doesnt put a good face on our club if new or potential members are reading stuff like that. I dont know if Evan's post should have been deleted or not, but we're all friends here and everyone can get over it. Are you going to defend Kaan too, because some of his drunken posts got deleted?

Well I guess I don't get where the 'deleting' stops. If I tell Kaan to sit on my fat hog and spin is that going to get deleted? What if I tell it to a n00b w/ 1 post or Rob? I just see this as a problem a year from now when some new officer that isn't 'into' motorsports takes over, becomes a mod, never comes out to the track and has no idea who me or kaan is and knows we are just fucking around. I've never told someone that I didn't at least have met once to go fuck a rope yet I've been banned.

[Kaan]

The hate I bring is down right mean. My hate is not Evans hate. But if you cant handle me, your life outside of college is going to be full of tears and tissues. You guys wouldnt last 10 minutes in my office... I've got the biggest fuck ups, unproductive fuckers trying to get me fired... well that was the news as of yesterday when I got pulled into the office.

and fyi your censorship on this issue tells me that you think MM is actually a CULT... much more then my passion for our traditions.

[G.Irish]

So if evan insults me at the track is gerald going to delete his words?

Its not about people who know each other. Notice that I've never moderated anyone's posts when two people who know each other decide to make fun of each other or whatever. The point was that new people come on here and that sometimes they get treated unkindly.

When you joined the club you were more into drag racing and what not but no one started crucifying you because you weren't into roadracing yet. The people who were around before the forum started certainly weren't treated the same way some new people are being treated now. New people shouldn't have to fight and argue and suck up ridicule to join the community. Especially considering that no one who has been here since the first 2 or 3 years had to do the same.