Moore or Pig?

[Feersty]

Like WTF mate. ugh.

[Mike]

Like WTF mate. ugh.

Read the tuner thread first... It was meant to be a joke.

[JackoliciousLegs]

Rob, have you seen Bowling for Columbine?

[.RJ]

That fucking shitbag.........

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040615/ap_on_en_mo/people_moore_2">http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... le_moore_2</a><!-- m -->

SAN FRANCISCO - Michael Moore (news) says he had footage of prisoner abuse in Iraq (news - web sites) but decided to stay quiet until his new movie came out.

I had it months before the story broke on `60 Minutes II,' and I really struggled with what to do with it," Moore told the San Francisco Chronicle in Sunday's editions.

[.RJ]

Yikes.

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The Guardian of London reported today organizations related to the Middle East-based terrorist network have offered to help promote the film in the United Arab Emirates.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://film.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,12589,1240819,00.html">http://film.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0 ... 19,00.html</a><!-- m -->

[JackoliciousLegs]

Comments were made by such reputable organizations as "Move America Forward."
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.moveamericaforward.org/">http://www.moveamericaforward.org/</a><!-- m -->
MAF has the slogan:

Launched to Support War on Terror & U.S. Troops

Notice the structure of that slogan. lol... enough nitpicking tho...

Let me just clear up why Hezbollah is supporting F911. The film shows great disdain towards America's leadership which is in accordance with their beliefs. The comments in the articles were written by known vocal republicans (...Melanie Morgan).. and by vocal, i mean lobbyists.

All this hoopla makes me wonder why conservatives are so afraid of free speech. Also makes me wonder why our conservative leadership doesn't take the hint. After the state departments press release this week ( <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/10/powell.terror.report.ap/index.html">http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/10/powell ... index.html</a><!-- m --> ) why can't everyone understand that money needs to be put elsewhere. Not in nationbuilding or "defense." Money should be put into foreign aid, not foreign destruction.

The State Department acknowledged Thursday it was wrong in reporting terrorism declined worldwide last year, a finding used to boost one of President Bush's chief foreign policy claims -- success in countering terror.

W + Foreign Policy = t3h sUX

[.RJ]

Let me just clear up why Hezbollah is supporting F911. The film shows great disdain towards America's leadership which is in accordance with their beliefs.

No shit sherlock

The State Department acknowledged Thursday it was wrong in reporting terrorism declined worldwide last year, a finding used to boost one of President Bush's chief foreign policy claims -- success in countering terror.

W + Foreign Policy = t3h sUX

No one's policies are perfect, and it seems GW's administration has stumbled on itself several times now. If there's one glaring fault with all of this its their apparent lack of coordination and communication.

Putting all of the information available to the public under a microscope is pretty useless, given that much of the usefull/relevant info must be protected, and whats release is likely just the tip of the iceberg.

[JackoliciousLegs]

No one's policies are perfect

True. I just wish W would own up to screwing up just once. Clinton appologized to the american people for screwing up...errrr.... around

[.RJ]

It seems they think they're getting around to saying "well we fucked up and some of our intel was incorrect" by just making ambiguous statements from the beginning

But who knows.. maybe we're not getting the whole story to begin with. Maybe GW isnt even getting the whole story.

At any rate, they really tripped over their dicks with the Chalabi fiasco. Some of it can be put on the Clinton administration as well, but that doesnt matter.

I still agree with moving into Iraq, I just wish a more forceful/concentrated/clear plan was put into place.

[G.Irish]

No one's policies are perfect, and it seems GW's administration has stumbled on itself several times now. If there's one glaring fault with all of this its their apparent lack of coordination and communication.

Putting all of the information available to the public under a microscope is pretty useless, given that much of the usefull/relevant info must be protected, and whats release is likely just the tip of the iceberg.

For my money the glaring fault of this administration is that they start out with a premise, then try to find evidence to support this premise. Then, when they get evidence instead of looking at it objectively they just assume that it is evidence that supports their original premise. In simpler terms "Facts and/or rules be damned!"

[.RJ]

Either that or the administration is doing a very poor job of releasing relevant information in a timely manner.

[Kaan]

clinton also said he didnt have sexual relations with that woman... intercourse no... relations... hell yes... trust who you will

[G.Irish]

clinton also said he didnt have sexual relations with that woman... intercourse no... relations... hell yes... trust who you will

Lying about a blow job < fabricating reasons for going to war

Hopefully the whole situation will be closed out properly. I have a feeling that somewhere in the Bush administration's case for war they figured that a democratic Iraq could mean a generally less hostile Middle East and certainly a place less likely to breed terrorists.

It seems that the Middle East as a whole is ready to eschew its history of authoritarian regimes and begin getting up to speed in the modern global economy. If reconstruction in Iraq doesn't get crippled by insurgency or worse yet, a civil war then it could be a good outcome for everyone.

[Maengelito]

first off, the job of an intel analyst isnt easy. its not like bush and powell were sitting in front of a computer one day looking at satellite photos going "holy shit, that looks like wmd". it takes a LOT of analysts and coordination to prepare this sorta thing. another thing is i think everyone is looking for a big nuclear missle with a shiny red bow on it. in which case, wmd hasnt been found. but in actuallity, lots of dual use facilities which could have been possibly used exist, and saddam has a history of hiding things he shouldnt be doing, killing millions of people, and other things which shouldnt be discussed on a public forum.

it all comes down to how we hear about things and how things are. yes, the insurgency is a problem, but when was the last time you saw on the news a story about your everyday life? its 99% of the time about the bad shit. the economy is doing pretty well for a country that was liberated about a year ago, and isnt even under its own control yet. in general, i think the media puts quite a spin on things. i think it'd be hard for any of you to distinguish downtown baghdad and downtown miami. baghdad's probably got slightly more violence, and is a little bit hotter, whereas miami has hotter women and less people that speak english.
or in a broader sense, you could think that bush's foreign policy has caused all this stir and unrest, or you could say it ousted a known criminal dictator, overthrown the taliban government, forced syria and iran and north korea to divulge their plans of nuclear power behind the international oversight committee's backs. both sides would be true, just depends on how you tell it.

[Feersty]

Rob, have you seen Bowling for Columbine?

No haven't seen it, if it is worth seeing, then I will definitely take the time to do so.

[G.Irish]

The media spin on the war is actually quite comical to me. Here we have people drawing parallels to the Vietnam War for a conflict where we've only had about 600 soldiers killed in the course of a year. To put that in perspective both New York and Chicago had over 600 homicides last year. The thing that is disturbing to me about the response to US casualties is that it indicates we have a weak stomach for war. I am of the opinion that if we're not willing to die for a cause then we have no business killing other people for it. But then again that is why soldiers are soldiers and civilians are civilians. Most civilians probably do not understand military sacrifice and never will.

The only parallel I can see with Vietnam though, is that the political leadership's involvement in military planning might be higher than it should be. Several US generals have openly criticized the strategy of going into the war with less force than what was needed to totally stomp out any chance of insurgency. Still, we're not doing too badly considering we left several Iraqi ammunitions depots open for looting.

As for the intelligence, I can appreciate the difficulty in compiling an accurate picture of the situation on the ground. In Bush's defense as president I think its reasonable to assume that the information you receive on your front desk is somewhat accurate. That said there is a level of verification and objective scrutiny that must take place. For instance, when Iraqi exiles give you intelligence you have to consider that they have an agenda to push. When you have your own people do the legwork and refute previous assertions you probably should take heed. I don't pretend to know where all of the failures and miscalculations in our intelligence were but it is apparent that there were a good number of them. George Tenet's resignation pretty much sums it up.

But the fact is that Bush wanted to get rid of Saddam and he wanted his people to prove a case. Again, started with a premise, and wanted people to prove it. What is especially damning to me is that pre 9/11 people in Bush's cabinet flat out said that they didn't believe Saddam has significant WMD capabilities. People like who? Look for yourself.

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In spite of all this history is ultimately about outcomes. If the new Iraqi government does well and gives rise to a prosperous nation all of the ugly and questionable stuff leading up the war will become moot. That is certainly the result I hope for.

[JackoliciousLegs]

Just saw F911 last night. I highly recommend it. It is indeed a personal attack on bush and the administration, but Moore backs up all his claims. My advice is to go see it. the end.

[Mike]

Cock saw it last night and told me I have to see it so we can talk about it. I'll probably go on Tuesday.

[Sijray21]

No one's policies are perfect

True. I just wish W would own up to screwing up just once. Clinton appologized to the american people for screwing up...errrr.... around

this was after his term in office however. He wasn't going into a campaign for another term in office, he was fighting a possible impeachment.

No haven't seen it, if it is worth seeing, then I will definitely take the time to do so.

I'd take the time to watch it. I found it interesting. I also want to watch F9/11.

[Evan]

Here is an article written by Christopher Hitchens, one of the most well known and well respected Liberals in the country. Considered one of the top "Liberal Hawks" and regular writer to "The Nation"
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This is not from some right wing commentator, not on some right wing website, so political bias is not an "out" for this argument.

Its a long read, but a must for anyone who has seen the movie, especially anyone calling others "uninformed" about topics related.