i give up... ok, based on written rule, it doesn't say it. based on fact and what actually happens, you're wrong.
I Am Mike
4 wheels: '01 RAV4 (Formerly '93 Civic CX, '01 S2000, '10 GTI, '09 A4 Avant)
2 wheels: '12 Surly Cross-Check Custom | '14 Trek Madone 2.1 105 | '17 Norco Threshold SL Force 1 | '17 Norco Revolver 9.2 FS | '18 BMC Roadmachine 02 Two | '19 Norco Search XR Steel (Formerly '97 Honda VFR750F, '05 Giant TCR 2, '15 WeThePeople Atlas 24, '10 Scott Scale 29er XT, '11 Cervelo R3 Rival, '12 Ridley X-Fire Red)
No longer onyachin.
You've been giving up for ~3 posts now.
'76 911S | '14 328xi | '17 GTI | In memoriam: '08 848, '85 944
"Here, at last, is the cure for texting while driving. The millions of deaths which occur every year due to the iPhone’s ability to stream the Kim K/Ray-J video in 4G could all be avoided, every last one of them, if the government issued everyone a Seventies 911 and made sure they always left the house five minutes later than they’d wanted to. It would help if it could be made to rain as well. Full attention on the road. Guaranteed." -Jack Baruth
princeton law book says Wrote:de facto means "in fact," or "as a matter of fact"; de jure means "as a matter of law." Examples: In this town, the clergy have de facto immunity to the traffic laws. In the eyes of the law, of course, a speeder is a speeder; but no cop hereabouts would actually give a clergyman a speeding ticket. The old brigand wielded a de facto authority over his pack of thieves--though of course he had no legal authority. ersatz
Equal safety is defacto though not de jure.
![[Image: nutty_tbone_shake.jpg]](http://i.gleeson.us/gb/0608/nutty_tbone_shake.jpg)
Two feet.
Andy Wrote:princeton law book says Wrote:de facto means "in fact," or "as a matter of fact"; de jure means "as a matter of law." Examples: In this town, the clergy have de facto immunity to the traffic laws. In the eyes of the law, of course, a speeder is a speeder; but no cop hereabouts would actually give a clergyman a speeding ticket. The old brigand wielded a de facto authority over his pack of thieves--though of course he had no legal authority. ersatz
Equal safety is defacto though not de jure.
Andy nailed it. Chad was arguing that it's not de jure and everyone else was arguing that it was defacto. The two are not mutually exclusive. Yay asian smarts!
'76 911S | '14 328xi | '17 GTI | In memoriam: '08 848, '85 944
"Here, at last, is the cure for texting while driving. The millions of deaths which occur every year due to the iPhone’s ability to stream the Kim K/Ray-J video in 4G could all be avoided, every last one of them, if the government issued everyone a Seventies 911 and made sure they always left the house five minutes later than they’d wanted to. It would help if it could be made to rain as well. Full attention on the road. Guaranteed." -Jack Baruth
Apoc Wrote:You were also instructing before you'd even completed any sort of instructor training
I instructed *1* event, and then took the clinic.
Crimson fish...
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
Andy Wrote:Equal safety is defacto though not de jure.
Prove it with math!
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
Apoc Wrote:Well duhhhh... it's just bad form not to protect your instructor but Chad was debating requirements... not what makes us warm and fuzzy.
Evan said it was required, Chad disputed that. Based on the written rule, I think Chad is right. In "The CCR" that Chad brought up himself it IS required in writing.
MDA also requires it in writing.
Do you realize that not every club operates with a bible to govern their every move? Your only experience comes from P-car club and NASA, so your naivete may be understandable.
Evan Wrote:In "The CCR" that Chad brought up himself it IS required in writing.
Is it? He's arguing it isn't. Officials may rule otherwise in application but I think the rule isn't clear and open to Chad's interpretation.
Evan Wrote:Do you realize that not every club operates with a bible to govern their every move? Your only experience comes from P-car club and NASA, so your naivete may be understandable.
Sorry master world track super exerience guru... I can only hope to experience as much as you. I'm pretty sure they were really debating NASA because Mikey runs primarily with them and that's what Chad brought up. Yes there are other clubs out there but that's not as applicable to Mike's situation so your massive amounts of knowledge that makes you soooo much better informed isn't pertinent. Who gives a shit what BMWCCA does? We weren't arguing anything other than NASA. Please, please do continute to further educate those of us who have myopic views of sanctioning bodies though... I love learning!
'76 911S | '14 328xi | '17 GTI | In memoriam: '08 848, '85 944
"Here, at last, is the cure for texting while driving. The millions of deaths which occur every year due to the iPhone’s ability to stream the Kim K/Ray-J video in 4G could all be avoided, every last one of them, if the government issued everyone a Seventies 911 and made sure they always left the house five minutes later than they’d wanted to. It would help if it could be made to rain as well. Full attention on the road. Guaranteed." -Jack Baruth
Apoc Wrote:We weren't arguing anything other than NASA.
No, Chad brought up NASA.
You're fishing for a point here. Yes the rule is not cut and dry and requires a 2+2=4 logical conclusion that is currently flying above your (and chad's) head.
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
.RJ Wrote:Apoc Wrote:We weren't arguing anything other than NASA.
No, Chad brought up NASA.
...and that's what all subsequent discussion was based on... the NASA CCR. He, nor I, were arguing anything outside that. I'm not debating whether or not he was right in doing so, which is what Evan seems to focused on in reminding us of our club experience. Let me say that again in case it didn't sink in... I'm only defending his position on the NASA CCR. I don't need to fish for shit, I know what my intent is.
.RJ Wrote:You're fishing for a point here. Yes the rule is not cut and dry and requires a 2+2=4 logical conclusion that is currently flying above your (and chad's) head.
It's not flying above anyone's head. I think it depends on your interpretation of rules in general. If you believe rules are explicit then what's not stated specifically isn't a rule and therefore not required or prohibited. I think that's the perspective that Chad's coming from and I subscribe to it. If you don't spell it out then I can do whateverthefuckiwant... that's why rule books are so long.
In conclusion: Everyone wins!
...and because this thread doesn't have enough cats.
![[Image: serious_cat.jpg]](http://www.knitemare.org/cats/serious_cat.jpg)
'76 911S | '14 328xi | '17 GTI | In memoriam: '08 848, '85 944
"Here, at last, is the cure for texting while driving. The millions of deaths which occur every year due to the iPhone’s ability to stream the Kim K/Ray-J video in 4G could all be avoided, every last one of them, if the government issued everyone a Seventies 911 and made sure they always left the house five minutes later than they’d wanted to. It would help if it could be made to rain as well. Full attention on the road. Guaranteed." -Jack Baruth
Apoc Wrote:If you believe rules are explicit then what's not stated specifically isn't a rule and therefore not required or prohibited
How is the 944 cup rulebook written?
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
Explicit. If it isn't specifically stated then it's legal.
We had people who put adjustible MAF on their cars because it wasn't specifically prohibited. Even though it could be inferred by a PCA rule we couldn't (decided not to) act because Cup rules are written as explicit. In the off season it was added as explicit item "o" in the rules.
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'76 911S | '14 328xi | '17 GTI | In memoriam: '08 848, '85 944
"Here, at last, is the cure for texting while driving. The millions of deaths which occur every year due to the iPhone’s ability to stream the Kim K/Ray-J video in 4G could all be avoided, every last one of them, if the government issued everyone a Seventies 911 and made sure they always left the house five minutes later than they’d wanted to. It would help if it could be made to rain as well. Full attention on the road. Guaranteed." -Jack Baruth
.RJ Wrote:Apoc Wrote:In other words, the bare minimum for driver is the bare minimum for the passenger. It does NOT say that the passenger has to have to same.
Thats what I'm sayin'.... and Evan, and Mikey as well. Driver can have a $$ racetech seat, hans, eleventy point belts... and the passenger side can have a $200 corbeau seat and $80 latch-n-link belts. Thats ok.
This is clearly not allowed:
white_2kgt Wrote:lol, 'unwritten' != required. Of course, if an instructor doesn't feel comfortable getting in a students car then he has the right to refuse, but it's not against the 'rules' for a student to have a bling seat and harnesses and leave the instructor w/ a stock seat and belts. It does say something about the student if they show up with a setup like that.
Which was the point all along that Chad is missing.
I assure you all 100% that a stock seat and belt is all that is REQUIRED for a passenger in HPDE according to how the CCR is written NO MATTER what the driver has on his side. A passenger is an instructor, student or guest. If you want email Grumpy and ask him, I already have. Argument OVER.
Well that settles that. Group hug?
'76 911S | '14 328xi | '17 GTI | In memoriam: '08 848, '85 944
"Here, at last, is the cure for texting while driving. The millions of deaths which occur every year due to the iPhone’s ability to stream the Kim K/Ray-J video in 4G could all be avoided, every last one of them, if the government issued everyone a Seventies 911 and made sure they always left the house five minutes later than they’d wanted to. It would help if it could be made to rain as well. Full attention on the road. Guaranteed." -Jack Baruth
white_2kgt Wrote:.RJ Wrote:Apoc Wrote:In other words, the bare minimum for driver is the bare minimum for the passenger. It does NOT say that the passenger has to have to same.
Thats what I'm sayin'.... and Evan, and Mikey as well. Driver can have a $$ racetech seat, hans, eleventy point belts... and the passenger side can have a $200 corbeau seat and $80 latch-n-link belts. Thats ok.
This is clearly not allowed:
white_2kgt Wrote:lol, 'unwritten' != required. Of course, if an instructor doesn't feel comfortable getting in a students car then he has the right to refuse, but it's not against the 'rules' for a student to have a bling seat and harnesses and leave the instructor w/ a stock seat and belts. It does say something about the student if they show up with a setup like that.
Which was the point all along that Chad is missing.
I assure you all 100% that a stock seat and belt is all that is REQUIRED for a passenger in HPDE according to how the CCR is written NO MATTER what the driver has on his side. A passenger is an instructor, student or guest. If you want email Grumpy and ask him, I already have. Argument OVER.
lol,
so after all this talk about "IT MUST BE IN WRITING" you try to "settle" the argument with hearsay from an official (which Im willing to bet you misunderstood- "passenger" != "instructor"). RJ already highlighted the CCR passages where it pretty explicitly says that equal spec restraints must be used in a students car and you still cant understand it, so Im not going to bother.
Not to mention, your point has been proven wrong since:
1) NASA isnt the only club in town (and no, NOBODY uses nasa's CCR chad) and wasnt the original question
2) None of this applies to instructors cars anyway
so stop trying to manipulate the discussion because you cant admit you are wrong.
Ill bring up the point one last time that 2 non-instructors are trying to tell 3 instructors instructing policy.
Evan Wrote:2) None of this applies to instructors cars anyway
Well the CCR doesnt differentiate between 'passenger seat in an instructor car' and 'instructors seat'. Just driver and passenger. So according to the book they should meet the same minimum spec - my passengers always got a crappy, uncomfortable corbeau seat 
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
It's not explicit and if an official truly did say that then it would appear that your wrong. If you're worried about hearsay then write him yourself.
No one's telling anyone anything about instructing or policy. We're talking about safety equipment rules as they're written. That has nothing to do with policy (applied practice) or instructing. We're talking about the rules that govern the carrying of passengers, big bloody vaginal period.
Again... and I'll write it real big for you... THEY MAY BE DEFACTO BUT THEY ARE NOT DE JURE. Believe it or not, students have to follow the rules too and guess what... we were once students!
'76 911S | '14 328xi | '17 GTI | In memoriam: '08 848, '85 944
"Here, at last, is the cure for texting while driving. The millions of deaths which occur every year due to the iPhone’s ability to stream the Kim K/Ray-J video in 4G could all be avoided, every last one of them, if the government issued everyone a Seventies 911 and made sure they always left the house five minutes later than they’d wanted to. It would help if it could be made to rain as well. Full attention on the road. Guaranteed." -Jack Baruth
Apoc Wrote:It's not explicit
I'm going to bitch-man-pimp-slap you.
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
.RJ Wrote:Apoc Wrote:It's not explicit
I'm going to bitch-man-pimp-slap you.
Seriously speaking... if Chad didn't imagine and/or make up his conversation with Grumpy... it would seem that's true, right? Can you at least admit to that?
'76 911S | '14 328xi | '17 GTI | In memoriam: '08 848, '85 944
"Here, at last, is the cure for texting while driving. The millions of deaths which occur every year due to the iPhone’s ability to stream the Kim K/Ray-J video in 4G could all be avoided, every last one of them, if the government issued everyone a Seventies 911 and made sure they always left the house five minutes later than they’d wanted to. It would help if it could be made to rain as well. Full attention on the road. Guaranteed." -Jack Baruth
I've heard grumpy and Unkefer say the exact opposite - so without knowing the details of the conversation Chad had with him, I have no idea what he's getting at.
To me the rulebook is explicit and its pretty clear about what they want.
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
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