New health care bill

[Evan]

Also, the bill is supposed to create a surplus of $100B+.

no, via tricks like double counting medicare cuts (towards both deficit reduction and healthcare bill) and moving expensive write-downs to another bill etc, etc it costs us at least 500 billion in the short term

here is an article written by the former cheif of CBO

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/opinion/21holtz-eakin.html">http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/opinion/21holtz-eakin.html</a><!-- m -->

The answer, unfortunately, is that the budget office is required to take written legislation at face value and not second-guess the plausibility of what it is handed. So fantasy in, fantasy out.

In reality, if you strip out all the gimmicks and budgetary games and rework the calculus, a wholly different picture emerges: The health care reform legislation would raise, not lower, federal deficits, by $562 billion.

[Kaan]

governing rules for insurance companies... so they cant drop people for being sick, cover preexisting conditions, etc... didnt need this bill. it didnt need $1 trillion

Where is that money going to come from then? All it would do is lead to even more outrageous premiums.

You guys with your cushy government jobs and ridiculous fucking benefits that all of US are paying for just have no idea. You are most definitely not the majority in our country.

cushy government job? you mean the fact that i'm a contractor and that unless you get lucky with a long term contract... you change jobs every 9-12 months? doesnt sound like cushy job security to me.

its true, making it so insurance companies cant drop sick people and so they would cover preexisting conditions would have cost us money... but you see what those two things, plus the pork belly bullshit, plus all the other crap they added to it costs? what i am saying is i agree with some of the stuff... but i dont agree with the majority of it... and not with the majority of the spending.

[Evan]

Pulled shamelessly from Wikipedia. Social Security was most definitely not popular when it was enacted, but it now (still controversially) keeps 40% of Americans 65 or older out of poverty.

Wat?

social security act was bipartisan and passed in the house 372 yeas to 33 nays, and in the senate 77 yeas to 6 nays.

not from wikipedia
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.ssa.gov/history/tally.html">http://www.ssa.gov/history/tally.html</a><!-- m -->

(it was also passed during an economic recession, a crisis is a terrible thing to waste!)

[WRXtranceformed]

It initially was not a popular idea before it was passed, was my point. It encountered a lot of flak as well.

[CaptainHenreh]

If it were up to me to make a bill, I'd start here:

Abolish employer-provided healthcare.
Abolish this ridiculous state-by-state health care regulations. How this still didn't get put in the Obamacare bill is insane. They did this with the auto insurance industry and everybody's prices went down, because competition went up. AMAZING!
Force an "a-la-carte" buyer system. Why should a single man pay for prenatal care? That's stupid.
Tort reform, (although I have my doubts that it would make that big of a difference)
And, a third one, .Gov provided child health care. If you're under 18, you get medicaid. (Maybe. I dunno. I go back and forth on this one. But something like that ought to be in place.)

[Ole]

There were a lot of health programs created over the years that a lot of us will probably never see the benefit from but we still paid for. Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security (Ole? haha). Reform had to happen in our corrupt ass insurance and healthcare systems, Obama could have either put it off until our deficit is heading back in the right direction like it was in the Clinton era or we can make moves now and set it up for the future when Congressmen will have to grab their nuts and their pride and approve some tax hikes that aren't going to be popular. There is a lot that needs to happen for reform like this to be successful and a lot of it comes from our elected state representatives, and if all goes well it WILL lead to a healthier, happier populace who will in turn be able to reinvest in the economy instead of selling their souls to pay for medical bills.

Government Programs:
Medicare - Broke
Medicaid - Broke
Social Security - Going broke quickly


So let's have the government tell business how to be run.......


Abraham Lincoln once said: "You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves".



FYI: I am 20 years away from not receiving SS benefits and I am still young enough to kick your ass. :mrgreen:

[Apoc]

I'm more pissed that my property taxes go to pay for other people's kids.

At least now I get to feel good for helping poor people get vicodin.

[G.Irish]

Honestly I don't trust the estimates for the costs simply because politicians always undershoot the cost of things like this. Remember when the Iraq war was only supposed to cost $20 billion? It's close to $1 trillion. To sell something like this it is only natural that even the best of people are going to try to minimize the costs.

Will it be a net good for the country? I don't know, but I know the more complicated and convoluted stuff like this is, the less likely it is going to work well.

[ViPER1313]

I'm more pissed that my property taxes go to pay for other people's kids.

At least now I get to feel good for helping poor people get vicodin.

It's this selfish, convoluted view of how "you" are getting screwed into having to "pay for other people's kids" and "helping poor people get vicodin" that irks me beyond all belief. You are not the only person paying for services that you don't use or take advantage of, and you take advantage of services that others don't. My father's house in middle of nowhere VA doesn't have city water or a publicly maintained street and only gets used 20 days out of the year, but he still has to pay property taxes on it. I guess you owe him some tax money for all those wasteful monitoring and maintenance services that he is paying VA for and not seeing any benefit from, but you are taking advantage of......

The beauty of America is that as a collective society we are able to provide for people's basic needs (food, shelter, safety) and have a good enough infrastructure that allows for growth and personal success if you want to work hard enough to obtain it. I would much rather be on welfare in the US than a millionaire living in Somalia......

[CaptainHenreh]

My father's house in middle of nowhere VA doesn't have city water or a publicly maintained street and only gets used 20 days out of the year, but he still has to pay property taxes on it.

You know, if he doesn't like it, he could always sell it.

I'm with Deracola. I don't mind helping out people in need, but I don't appreciate doing it at gunpoint.

[Apoc]

I was being sarcastic and inflammatory, thanks for taking the bait.

But, for the record, I'm all for no taxes and implementing a pay-per-use system (toll roads work wonders for NJ). So yeah, I think your dad is owed some money back and if I don't have kids in school, I shouldn't have to pay for them.

Yes, I realize schools have an impact on my lifestyle, especially once those kids grow up. That's where I think "greater good" should be done through donation and charity... which I would be willing to do a lot more of if the government wasn't forcing me to already. We have a moral obligation to help those in need, I just don't think it should be mandated.

edit: While I'm at it, I'd also like every retirement dollar I make to invest as I chose.

[Evan]

The beauty of America is that as a collective society we are able to provide for people's basic needs (food, shelter, safety) and have a good enough infrastructure that allows for growth and personal success if you want to work hard enough to obtain it.

you cant have it both ways Adam, we either provide for peoples basic needs (which we dont, by the way) or we allow for people to work hard and succeed, not both.

America's success as a world super power has been built upon one of those ideals, and not the other.


and you still havent answered my question.

[ViPER1313]

I was being sarcastic and inflammatory, thanks for taking the bait.

But, for the record, I'm all for no taxes and implementing a pay-per-use system (toll roads work wonders for NJ). So yeah, I think your dad is owed some money back and if I don't have kids in school, I shouldn't have to pay for them.

Yes, I realize schools have an impact on my lifestyle, especially once those kids grow up. That's where I think "greater good" should be done through donation and charity... which I would be willing to do a lot more of if the government wasn't forcing me to already. We have a moral obligation to help those in need, I just don't think it should be mandated.

edit: While I'm at it, I'd also like every retirement dollar I make to invest as I chose.

NJ roads are the worst (in terms of repair) I have ever driven on - they make MD/VA roads look like a gift from God.

Donations and charity are great things that everyone should do, but your statement ("I would be willing to do a lot more of if the government wasn't forcing me to already") shows exactly why it wont work - at best you would be "willing" to help, and in most peoples minds, including yours, these social issues are simply not "their problem." Look at how much news spin Haiti gets these days - it hasn't been 2 months and this issue has dropped almost entirely off of most peoples radar.

It's a very logical train of thought for people ("I didn't cause this issue, the issue doesn't affect me / I don't see the benefit, why should I help?") that would make it incredibly hard for anyone who was not already in a well-off position to better themselves, and in general a lot of services / protections that you take for granted would go away instantly. Who would chip in / donate for pollution controls, state parks, interstate highways, etc? I understand that lots of people abuse the current system, I understand that a lot of people ride our current system without bettering themselves, but I also like knowing that if someone really wants to further their education or enjoy a public space that they can without having to mortgage their entire life.

The beauty of America is that as a collective society we are able to provide for people's basic needs (food, shelter, safety) and have a good enough infrastructure that allows for growth and personal success if you want to work hard enough to obtain it.

you cant have it both ways Adam, we either provide for peoples basic needs (which we dont, by the way) or we allow for people to work hard and succeed, not both.

America's success as a world super power has been built upon one of those ideals, and not the other.

Food stamps? Public housing? Homeless shelters? Police? Fire&Rescue services? Some entirely government controlled and some heavily subsidized, but all paid for or assisted by your tax dollars in one way or another.....

And yes, you have to work hard to succeed, but if you weren't given opportunities (subsidized education, low interest housing loans, etc) provided by tax dollars, do you think your life would be as well off as it is today?

and you still havent answered my question.

I give up - enlighten me.

[Apoc]

Donations and charity are great things that everyone should do, but your statement ("I would be willing to do a lot more of if the government wasn't forcing me to already") shows exactly why it wont work - at best you would be "willing" to help, and in most peoples minds, including yours, these social issues are simply not "their problem."

It's a very logical train of thought for people ("I didn't cause this issue, the issue doesn't affect me / I don't see the benefit, why should I help?") that would make it incredibly hard for anyone who was not already in a well-off position to better themselves, and in general a lot of services / protections that you take for granted would go away instantly. Who would chip in / donate for pollution controls, state parks, interstate highways, etc?

You can't judge the behavior of people in a hypothetical situation based on the behavior in a different one. Just because (you think) I'm stingy now, doesn't mean I'd automatically be that way if things were different... unless you believe that Man in inherently bad.... which it sounds like you do. I'm pretty sure you really have no clue what I was saying. At what point did I say social issues weren't my problem? The problem is you're judging those with means by the actions of those who are already pissed off at forced social charity.

You assumed, because I used the word "willing" that I meant I'd give an extra $5 here, $20 there and fuck everyone else I don't care about. I'm actually talking about giving double-digits percent of my income to causes that I believe in.

pollution control - tax the company and let that be passed on to the consumer. if it's a necessary commodity, then the free market will make it happen.

state parks - pay to get in

interstate highways - pay to use them

Subsidize all of the above with the increase in charity I'm talking about. I happen to really like the outdoors, so I'd give more than my share to the state park system. That way I get to say what is or isn't good/working/popular/awesome/cracktastic with my money.

Yes, I'm THAT free market.

[Goodspeed]

It's moot.

Best argument I have read for it:

No person should become bankrupt in this country due to an insurance company denying them a policy or claim if their illness/injury was not caused by them or forseen.

Best argument I have read against it:

Health insurance is a good, not a right

Or

Is it lawful under the Constitution to require members of the population to enter into a contract?

Overall it kind of reeks of people working for the government instead of vice versa. I don't like the fine/tax, and I want to know what will happen with illegals rolling into emergency rooms who refuse to buy in or pay the fine - who pays for that?

My absolute favorite part of the bill which I wholeheartedly support is

Tanning Tax -- 10 percent excise tax on indoor tanning services.

Hopefully that will stop people from doing that stupid shit.

[Apoc]

I want to know what will happen with illegals rolling into emergency rooms who refuse to buy in or pay the fine - who pays for that?

Illegals can't buy in. The hospital will treat them and write it off as a loss, like they do now for anyone who can't pay their bill.

[Steve85]

3: The "you have to take anyone" provision. Look, it's very sad when someone gets rejected for coverage. But to a certain degree, it is an *insurance* company. Can I get car insurance for my wrecked car? No, that's called insurance fraud. What about getting fire insurance for my burning house? Now, I agree that this needs to change, but in reality all this is going to do is make everyone's premiums skyrocket. That shit isn't free! It costs money! Someone has to pay for it, and the people who are going to pay for it are healthy people.

Just to clarify the preexisting condition thing....If I have carrier A through employer A any sickness I have during that time can be considered a preexisting condition when I move on to employer B with carrier B. This is not a situation where I'm trying to game the system. I believe the intent of the new regulation is more to address this scenario than the "I'll wait until I'm sick" scenario.

In the corporate world you can buy a "tail" to cover "past incidents", this is not available in health insurance. They simply deny you coverage either entirely or for any related possible illness'.

I don't disagree with what effect it will have on premiums.

[Evan]

Just to clarify the preexisting condition thing....If I have carrier A through employer A any sickness I have during that time can be considered a preexisting condition when I move on to employer B with carrier B.

When I was about to change jobs I needed to go to the doctor and I thought this was how it worked. So I talked to an insurance rep and was assured that policies are written such that as long as you had insurance at the time of sickness then ongoing/future care for the same condition will be covered with the new insurance. (and it was)
This is why when you sign up for new health insurance they ask you about your previous policy and when it expired etc.

[Steve85]

Just to clarify the preexisting condition thing....If I have carrier A through employer A any sickness I have during that time can be considered a preexisting condition when I move on to employer B with carrier B.

When I was about to change jobs I needed to go to the doctor and I thought this was how it worked. So I talked to an insurance rep and was assured that policies are written such that as long as you had insurance at the time of sickness then ongoing/future care for the same condition will be covered with the new insurance. (and it was)
This is why when you sign up for new health insurance they ask you about your previous policy and when it expired etc.

Interesting...

We had to pay out of pocket for the remainder of pregnancy/birth of our second child (and a special shout out to Chris for paying for his and his brother's education) due to a job change and my dad's insurance as gone through the roof since his kidney transplant but he can't switch carriers because any related complications would not be covered.

I guess at the very least this "reform" removes all doubt.

And for the record, I'm not a big fan of the reform for it's size, scope, and expense. I agree that some of it's pros could have been accomplished with zero expense.

[Ole]

My absolute favorite part of the bill which I wholeheartedly support is

Tanning Tax -- 10 percent excise tax on indoor tanning services.

Hopefully that will stop people from doing that stupid shit.

So should we tax tatoos as well?


Paul was right!

Let me tell you how it will be;
There's one for you, nineteen for me.
'Cause I'm the taxman,
Yeah, I'm the taxman.

Should five per cent appear too small,
Be thankful I don't take it all.
'Cause I'm the taxman,
Yeah, I'm the taxman.

(if you drive a car, car - I'll tax the street;
(if you try to sit, sit - I'll tax your seat;
(if you get too cold, cold - I'll tax the heat;
(if you take a walk, walk - I'll tax your feet.

Taxman!

'Cause I'm the taxman,
Yeah, I'm the taxman.

Don't ask me what I want it for,
If you don't want to pay some more.
'Cause I'm the taxman,
Yeah, I'm the taxman.

Now my advice for those who die,
Declare the pennies on your eyes.
'Cause I'm the taxman,
Yeah, I'm the taxman.

And you're working for no one but me.

Taxman!