Here come the VT lawsuits...

[Apoc]

im really biting my tounge to not play the political party card....

didn't you just do that?

Don't picture a pink elephant!

[Andy]

Ridiculous.

I'm curious to know what they would have *liked* for VT to do.

They would have liked for VT to have armed guards at all buildings at all times, metal detectors in every doorway, key card access to buildings and rooms, ...

nope. that would be a violation of their 'civil rights' and they would have sued for that. then after getting that changed and their kiddies get shot up, sue again for not providing security.

its all hypocritical. 'they' say you cant take away someone's rights and commit them to a mental institution, or keep them from taking classes and have put policies in place to make it extremely difficult to do so. But then when the same psycho that everyone wanted to lock up goes out and shoots some people up, the same 'they' is suing because you should have known he was going to do that and you didnt do enough to prevent it.

im really biting my tounge to not play the political party card....

Wow. To say that dems are behind this is pretty stupid. Greed transcends party. Not to mention, we're assuming these people are of sound mind after losing their child.

[HAULN-SS]

I think this is going to be more of a symbolic lawsuit than anything. You can't really get far suing the state. They'll get their closure by someone "admitting" that they could've done more. They might get a little bit more money, but I don't see this being one of those "I spilled coffee on myself" lawsuits

[PGK]

In all fairness, Fairfax county schools had Cho in a completely individualized program to help him deal with his condition. It involved exemption from class discussions, exemptions from group work, and a lot of counseling and therapy sessions to be able to get him into groups in a very limited capacity. VT ignored this, and provided no aid or assistance to him, and Fairfax county did little or nothing to notify VT of his condition.

I read this in an article in either the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal or the DC CityPaper, I can't remember which and I am having a hard time finding the article.

[Evan]

Ridiculous.

I'm curious to know what they would have *liked* for VT to do.

They would have liked for VT to have armed guards at all buildings at all times, metal detectors in every doorway, key card access to buildings and rooms, ...

nope. that would be a violation of their 'civil rights' and they would have sued for that. then after getting that changed and their kiddies get shot up, sue again for not providing security.

its all hypocritical. 'they' say you cant take away someone's rights and commit them to a mental institution, or keep them from taking classes and have put policies in place to make it extremely difficult to do so. But then when the same psycho that everyone wanted to lock up goes out and shoots some people up, the same 'they' is suing because you should have known he was going to do that and you didnt do enough to prevent it.

im really biting my tounge to not play the political party card....

Wow. To say that dems are behind this is pretty stupid. Greed transcends party. Not to mention, we're assuming these people are of sound mind after losing their child.

maybe thats why I didnt say that :roll:
I do blame the liberals for fostering an environment where a lawsuit like this is possible, and for opposing the tort reform that would fix it. But I was also speaking more in a general sense like what RJ was mentioning.

after thinking about it, im not sure I blame the VT families all that much. The money is there if the system will allow it, so they have every incentive (other than morality) to take it. Nothing will bring back their child so the logic is easy for them to get reimbursed for their suffering.

[Kaan]

In all fairness, Fairfax county schools had Cho in a completely individualized program to help him deal with his condition. It involved exemption from class discussions, exemptions from group work, and a lot of counseling and therapy sessions to be able to get him into groups in a very limited capacity. VT ignored this, and provided no aid or assistance to him, and Fairfax county did little or nothing to notify VT of his condition.

I read this in an article in either the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal or the DC CityPaper, I can't remember which and I am having a hard time finding the article.

Parents can get in trouble for NOT sending their children to school... under Virginia law. So obviously, up to the 12th grade, the state/county will provide aid to "special" children.

the day that "special" person (remember he is now 18 years old) decides to go to an institution of higher learning, the burden for any special aid he might need falls on that person.

He wasnÔÇÖt required to go to college, he chose to go to college... he chose to go to VT without any help which he had been involved with in "public" schools for God knows how long.

It is not Fairfax Co. responsibility to make people aware of his condition, nor was it VT responsibility to give him special aid outside of the law. It was his responsibility to make people aware, to get the help he needed, its part of growing up and becoming and adult.

Stop reading the bullshit in the media and live in the world of logic the City Paper is not worth reading.

[Feersty]

I think the strain that it puts on VA tax payers is totally out of line as well. Even in this situation the American want want want mentality still comes out.

[.RJ]

I think the strain that it puts on VA tax payers is totally out of line as well

Are you done talking our of your ass? Who do you think is going to pay up, the state or the school? Yes, the state partially funds the schools, but not for this sort of thing.

[PGK]

In all fairness, Fairfax county schools had Cho in a completely individualized program to help him deal with his condition. It involved exemption from class discussions, exemptions from group work, and a lot of counseling and therapy sessions to be able to get him into groups in a very limited capacity. VT ignored this, and provided no aid or assistance to him, and Fairfax county did little or nothing to notify VT of his condition.

I read this in an article in either the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal or the DC CityPaper, I can't remember which and I am having a hard time finding the article.

Parents can get in trouble for NOT sending their children to school... under Virginia law. So obviously, up to the 12th grade, the state/county will provide aid to "special" children.

the day that "special" person (remember he is now 18 years old) decides to go to an institution of higher learning, the burden for any special aid he might need falls on that person.

He wasnÔÇÖt required to go to college, he chose to go to college... he chose to go to VT without any help which he had been involved with in "public" schools for God knows how long.

It is not Fairfax Co. responsibility to make people aware of his condition, nor was it VT responsibility to give him special aid outside of the law. It was his responsibility to make people aware, to get the help he needed, its part of growing up and becoming and adult.

Stop reading the bullshit in the media and live in the world of logic the City Paper is not worth reading.

Cool your heels there.

I was hoping to add pragmatism to the thread, I don't feel a need to hop on a bandwagon and decry either Cho's family or the families of the slain. I sympathize with both, but I don't think lawsuits are going to solve a damn thing. The sea of 'what ifs' in this situation is endless.

Accountability for the shooting belongs to Cho alone. The red flags were there, but that is easy to point out in hindsight. To many he could have seemed an anxiety sufferer learning to cope. Not everyone with a mental disorder is a walking time bomb.

Don't care for the City Paper? Then don't read it.

[Feersty]

I think the strain that it puts on VA tax payers is totally out of line as well

Are you done talking our of your ass? Who do you think is going to pay up, the state or the school? Yes, the state partially funds the schools, but not for this sort of thing.

No, because you are always there to bring it up the rear. Yes there were Virginia Tech students that were brutally murdered, and apparently it could have been prevented, but no amount of money is going to bring back their child. I guess thinking about it again, it is just a flash in the pain, but Northern Virginia has supported the whole state of Virginia from the beginning, it is like something that we are not used to.

[Jewels]

but Northern Virginia has supported the whole state of Virginia from the beginning, it is like something that we are not used to.

Um... supported the whole state from the beginning of when?? Cause the Valley supported this state long before there was a "Northern Virginia" . Why do you think Sheridan burned the Valley? I have no interest in fighting a Northern Virginia versus the rest of Virginia argument. But damnit Feersty quit being such a Northern Virginia elitist. No offense but Northern Virginia is the sore spot to the rest of Virginians.

[Andy]

Can I say how much I enjoyed reading the Post article that Gerald posted up and realizing that most of the commenters hadn't bothered to read the article? I love it. Talking straight out of your asses about a topic that deserves a little care.

Last month, Virginia Tech offered the families of slain students a one-time payment of $180,000 from a fund that has been receiving private donations. Money from that fund is a gift

Kaine's panel issued its final report last week, concluding that Cho's rampage was probably unavoidable because he was intent on killing people that day. But the panel also found that lives could have been saved had the university alerted students sooner about the shooting in the dormitory and canceled classes because the gunman had not been caught. Additionally, the report said that the university's counseling center was passive in its lack of treatment for Cho.

Grenier has won large settlements from state and local governments, even though many, including Virginia, are supposed to have immunity from such lawsuits. In 2001, Grenier won a $1.5 million settlement in a wrongful death case against Jefferson County, Colo., stemming from the Columbine High School shootings in 1999. He also won a record $98 million verdict against the District in 1999 in a case involving a drug informant who was killed when he was supposed to be under police protection.

The attorneys represent the families of students Mathew Gregory Gwaltney, 24, of Chesterfield, Va.; Caitlin Hammaren, 19, of Westtown, N.Y.; Juan Ramon Ortiz, 26, of, Puerto Rico; Reema Samaha, 18, of Centreville; Nicole R. White of Smithfield, Va.; Brian Bluhm, 25, of Detroit; and Michael Pohle, 23, of Flemington, N.J. Grenier and Fierberg said they were are finalizing agreements to represent three additional families.

In summation, the precedent for suing the state in these cases has already been successfully set by the very law firm that these people hired. They're all from pretty different regions so I'm going to assume that there is at least a single republican in that field.

Virginia has a tort act in place that caps awards at 100,000 dollars though it can be bypassed in some instances.

I'm not going to judge folks who have lost their child in a such a terrible manner and frankly, there was negligence on VT's part for not shutting down the school after 2 students were shot and they had not found the shooter.

[Feersty]

but Northern Virginia has supported the whole state of Virginia from the beginning, it is like something that we are not used to.

Um... supported the whole state from the beginning of when?? Cause the Valley supported this state long before there was a "Northern Virginia" . Why do you think Sheridan burned the Valley? I have no interest in fighting a Northern Virginia versus the rest of Virginia argument. But damnit Feersty quit being such a Northern Virginia elitist. No offense but Northern Virginia is the sore spot to the rest of Virginians.

Don't bring it up if you don't want an argument. A Northern Virginia elitist, are you kidding me? Why did you guys move here? Obviously for the money and jobs.

because:

Employment in the high-tech sector has grown at twice the rate of total employment over the past five years. Tech wages average $67,800, compared to $33,000 for all industries in Virginia. Northern VirginiaÔÇÖs three core counties ÔÇö Fairfax, Loudoun and Arlington ÔÇö represent just 3.5 percent of the stateÔÇÖs land area but a fifth of its population and a third of its economic base.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.virginiaclassifieds.com/biz/virginiabusiness/magazine/yr2001/jan01/novasecede.html">http://www.virginiaclassifieds.com/biz/ ... ecede.html</a><!-- m -->

Northern Virginia is a fifth of the population of Virginia, but contributes a third of the economy of the state. Live in a box much?

[.RJ]

Don't bring it up if you don't want an argument.

YOU brought it up. Stop rambling on unless you have something coherent to say.

[WRXtranceformed]

I'm not going to judge folks who have lost their child in a such a terrible manner and frankly, there was negligence on VT's part for not shutting down the school after 2 students were shot and they had not found the shooter.

+1. Probably most of the liability on VT could have been avoided in my opinion if they had at least made an effort to contain the situation after the first two individuals were shot. I've said that from day 1. This is the age of Columbine and suicide bombers after all, it would make sense to take all precautions possible when a situation like that arises again.

And now, unfortunately, the state gets to deal with the wrath of the victim's families and their lawyers. Whether or not it's right or wrong of them to sue like that is not really something I can judge, because I'm not in their shoes. But that's the way things work in America now; if there is even the remote possibility that something could have been done to avoid a terrible situation and it is perceived that it wasn't, the floodgates of lawsuit open and in this case we (the taxpayers) are going to be feeling the effects of it.

[Mike]

Whether or not it's right or wrong of them to sue like that is not really something I can judge, because I'm not in their shoes.

I disagree. Sure, I'm not in the throes of agony from losing a loved one, but really, what is money going to do? It's not bringing them back, it's not going to make them feel better... FUCK! I am judging these people, and I think they're putting monetary values/trying to make a buck on the lives of their lost loved ones... a fucking joke.

[WRXtranceformed]

I know what you mean, I just can't say that I wouldn't be outraged also and want some retribution / compensation. Tragedy can fundamentally change people....just talk to anyone who's been through shitty experiences at Vietnam, or children in the ghetto whose parents or siblings are killed in front of them. I really can't say how I'd feel or what I'd want if something like that happened to me, that's why I'm trying not to pass judgment.

[G.Irish]

I'm not going to judge folks who have lost their child in a such a terrible manner and frankly, there was negligence on VT's part for not shutting down the school after 2 students were shot and they had not found the shooter.

+1. Probably most of the liability on VT could have been avoided in my opinion if they had at least made an effort to contain the situation after the first two individuals were shot. I've said that from day 1. This is the age of Columbine and suicide bombers after all, it would make sense to take all precautions possible when a situation like that arises again.

I totally disagree. Should the police close down a whole city every time there is a shooting somewhere? There have been shootings and stabbings in Harrisonburg, should the National Guard be called in to wall off the city in case of someone intent on a mass shooting? That doesn't make any sense.

There was no precedent for that type of shooting on a college campus much less Virginia Tech so how were the police to surmise that after what seemed like an isolated murder that this guy would turn around and kill others? Sure there was a chance of that but there's a chance of a MILLION scenarios, the police cannot possibly account for all of them. And really when you think about, how many murders have there been on or near a college campus? Now how many of them have led to a mass shooting? How many mass shootings have occurred on campus in total? How many mass shootings have there been in American total? Ok, so it was a very, very uncommon occurrence and not only that, but Cho gave no hints as to what he was going to do. So at the time, how were the police to expect a mass murder?

If the police resort to locking areas down every time there is a violent incident some violent person is going to figure out that he can kill a bunch of people who are locked up in a building somewhere, either by gun or explosive. The truth is that if someone is intent on killing people and does not care about getting caught or killed you cannot 100% prevent them from doing so.

In any situation you can always look back and say, "If we had done x differently, we could have saved some lives." But that doesn't necessarily mean someone was negligent and certainly doesn't mean someone should have to pay out millions in a lawsuit. Life is unpredictable, shit happens and the Government cannot possibly prevent every possible permutation of bad things that can happen to people.

Right now every single one of us is not safe at our office (except for me, I work at the Pentagon). Some nutjob could walk in right now and kill you and all of your coworkers. If such a massacre happened in hindsight people could say, "Well there should have been armed guards and metal detectors at the office." Ok, what if someone went into work with a bomb? "Well, they should have had bomb sniffing dogs..." At some point it just becomes absurd to play the 'what if' game. And at this point with the VT massacre it is absurd to be playing the blame game.

[.RJ]

except for me, I work at the Pentagon

Yeah, you're just at ground zero. Nothing to see here, move along

[WRXtranceformed]

Right now every single one of us is not safe at our office (except for me, I work at the Pentagon).

Uh, someone crashed a plane into your workplace. I wouldn't exactly call that place safe either.

I guess we can agree to disagree. Should we shut down an entire school campus if there's a shooting somewhere in Harrisonburg? Of course not. Should we immediately cancel all classes and shut down the campus if a shooting occurs on campus AND we haven't found where the shooter is yet? Absolutely, if I was calling the shots that would be the first call I would have made. That just seems like common sense to me. A lot of other people are seeing it that way too, from the recent news stories I've read.

I do agree with you that if someone wants to kill others he's going to find a way to do it, but you need to take every precaution you can to prevent it. Otherwise, the families of the victims can be persuaded by lawyers that they have a negligence case. That's what the issue is here. It's not necessarily the preventative steps you can take, but how you handle a disaster once it occurs...and what kind of steps you're taking to limit how out of control the situation gets.