SiCKO and Healthcare

[John]

More government oversight = more problems.

[HAULN-SS]

So - what if i'm a neurologist, and i'm a stupendous badass at what I do. Why would I go to canada and make a flat rate, even though, say my success rate for treating brain tumors was through the roof. I'd much rather go to a doctor here that is charging my insurance more because he's fully competent, than go see the flat rate doctor in a socialist health system..wouldnt you?

[Evan]

It's an option that works for other countries.

In 2004, French Health Minister Philippe Douste-Blazy told a government commission, "Our health system has gone mad. Profound reforms are urgent." Agence France-Presse recently reported that the French health-care system is running a deficit of $2.7 billion

Britain's NHS $700 million budget deficit
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5055602.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5055602.stm</a><!-- m -->

it. doesnt. work.

Ok, obviously our sources differ here. You have Kurt Loder. I have myself. Loder argues that there are sever wait times for some procedures. Short staffed doctors' offices don't mean the system is broken. It means they have too few doctors.

No, I have my relatives who lived under britain's system for years, as well as countless anecdotal accounts of these systems (I quoted the Loder article due to MTV's liberal slant and even they call it BS. And he does present an extremely informed case)
I fully appreciate the care that you recieved in emergency situations while abroad, but I do question how this would allow you to evaluate living long term under such a system.

I just think that a for-profit system will not work. That does not agree with the principal of a free market everything society.

I dont follow you here. Profit is the center of a free market. Maybe you meant "everything for free society" ?

We can't stop people from using private healthcare, but what we can do is raise taxes and stop funding private companies with our tax dollars. We can form a non-profit organization that has government oversight and government funding to take care of the american people. It's that simple.

first take a look into the business model behind insurance companies. They arent bloodsucking profiteers like Moore paints them, the way any insurance company makes money isnt by taking your money, its by holding onto it for a while before they give it back to you (collective you)
Keeping this money in float is how they make their profit.
The reasons for premiums going up is simply because they have to pay out a lot more now. Now wouldnt it be a smarter idea to address the issues on why they are paying out more money? I think John S is on the right track.

Another solution that I have been playing around with in my head, that would be centered around a free economy, would be that the government goes into the health insurance business. Not as the sole provider, but a competitor. They would have premiums and all the rest, just like a regular insurance provider, have restrictions on 'profit' (ie-none), have congressional oversight, etc. So in an open market, if the govt health insurance has lower premiums and better service than those other evil insurance companies, the market will adjust itself via competition.
(this also could be applied to the oil market to keep those 'evil' oil companies in check as well)

[Evan]

So - what if i'm a neurologist, and i'm a stupendous badass at what I do.

sorry Derek, you lost me there

[CaptainHenreh]

Another solution that I have been playing around with in my head, that would be centered around a free economy, would be that the government goes into the health insurance business. They would have premiums and all the rest, just like a regular insurance provider, have restrictions on 'profit' (ie-none), have congressional oversight, etc. So in an open market, if the govt health insurance has lower premiums and better service than those other evil insurance companies, the market will adjust itself via competition.
(this also could be applied to the oil market to keep those 'evil' oil companies in check as well)

FedEx Health Insurance?

[HAULN-SS]

So - what if i'm a neurologist, and i'm a stupendous badass at what I do.

sorry Derek, you lost me there

I'm ok with that

[MadFrog]

So - what if i'm a neurologist, and i'm a stupendous badass at what I do. Why would I go to canada and make a flat rate, even though, say my success rate for treating brain tumors was through the roof. I'd much rather go to a doctor here that is charging my insurance more because he's fully competent, than go see the flat rate doctor in a socialist health system..wouldnt you?

socialist health systems don't all work the same. I don't know about Canada, but here is how it works in France for SPECIALISTS (such as badass brain surgeons):
- you pick a specialist and go see him/her.
- they will let you know if they charge more than what is allowed under the socialist health plan ™
- you may then decide to see someone else OR
- pay the difference out of pocket OR
- you might have gap insurance for just that purpose (most employed people do have this insurance) that will pay the difference, or a large percentage thereof.

The "gap" insurances are typically private organizations. So it is kind of a mix between private/public health care systems. Unemployed people still get coverage, and employed people have the option of getting even better coverage.
I can assure you that the quality of care in France is top notch. I had plenty of opportunities to test that:
- emergency hospitalization after getting hit by a car on my bicycle. Two broken legs and a cracked skull + concussion.
- emergency appendectomy
- routine adenoidectomy
- broken foot from a motorcycle accident
- all the regular routine well-exams, vaccinations and usual childhood diseases.
And, I lived in the HILLS - as in 25 miles from the nearest hospital, although we did have a general practitioner in my village (population 1500 )

just some info...

[MadFrog]

In 2004, French Health Minister Philippe Douste-Blazy told a government commission, "Our health system has gone mad. Profound reforms are urgent." Agence France-Presse recently reported that the French health-care system is running a deficit of $2.7 billion

it. doesnt. work.

ah well, that is a different aspect of the whole clusterfuck. There are many reasons why the french system doesn't work, and I don't pretend to know them all, but I can name a few:
- high rate of unemployment means fewer people contributing compared to number of people collecting benefits
- high rate of immigration: immigrants are provided with health care, regardless of status
- general attitude of a lot of doctors. They will order many tests, prescribe a lot of medication without too much regard for cost since the patients typically are not paying for it out of pocket.
- pharmaceutical companies exerting HUMONGOUS pressure on doctors to prescribe their drugs as opposed to generics. It gets to be so close to bribery that it's not even funny (several high school friends having gone to med schools, I got stories...)
- general and typical governmental inefficiencies.

and I am sure many more.

[JackoliciousLegs]

So - what if i'm a neurologist, and i'm a stupendous badass at what I do. Why would I go to canada and make a flat rate, even though, say my success rate for treating brain tumors was through the roof. I'd much rather go to a doctor here that is charging my insurance more because he's fully competent, than go see the flat rate doctor in a socialist health system..wouldnt you?

Um... not if the flat rate doctor in a socialist company is getting compensated on the quality of the service he renders you. This is a silly argument. Watch the movie. NHS doctors are given bonuses based on the health of their patients.

Why is government healthcare considered socialism? This is a tremendous issue I have and I'm glad Moore brought it up. Gov't run healthcare doesn't mean we live in a socialist society any more than public schools or policemen do.

Seriously, watch the movie and we can avoid these little things. You might learn something... even if it is out of the mouth of a "socialist". oooOOOoooo.. :roll: Sidenote: I don't think Michael Moore is a socialist. He's just liberal.

I equate govt run healthcare vs private healthcare to VA public high schools vs CA ones. VA never offered vouchers for students to attend private schools. ie VA supported the socialist system of public, govt run, education. CA didnt. They dumped money into private schools and now their public school system is a wreck. Nobody who makes a decent wage wants to send their kid to a CA public high school.

In 2004, French Health Minister Philippe Douste-Blazy told a government commission, "Our health system has gone mad. Profound reforms are urgent." Agence France-Presse recently reported that the French health-care system is running a deficit of $2.7 billion

Britain's NHS $700 million budget deficit
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5055602.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5055602.stm</a><!-- m -->
it. doesnt. work.

It. CAN.

first take a look into the business model behind insurance companies. They arent bloodsucking profiteers like Moore paints them, the way any insurance company makes money isnt by taking your money, its by holding onto it for a while before they give it back to you (collective you)

You have got to be fucking kidding me. They hold on to it alright. I can't believe you said that. They pay... sometimes, but a broken hand shouldn't cost $1500 for a health guy (me).

Another solution that I have been playing around with in my head, that would be centered around a free economy, would be that the government goes into the health insurance business. Not as the sole provider, but a competitor. They would have premiums and all the rest, just like a regular insurance provider, have restrictions on 'profit' (ie-none), have congressional oversight, etc.

That's a great idea. The thing is, to support such a system, taxes would take a huge hike and money would get pulled from insurance companies. It'd be very difficult to start something like that, but I think it'd be a *great* start.

[JackoliciousLegs]

I'm sure it's just as 'factual' as everything else he's produced, right?

Quick requote:
Facts Check: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/checkup/">http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/checkup/</a><!-- m -->

[Ginger]

That's a great idea. The thing is, to support such a system, taxes would take a huge hike and money would get pulled from insurance companies. It'd be very difficult to start something like that, but I think it'd be a *great* start.

It wouldn't be any more expensive than a purely government run system.

*edit* and even if his facts are close to the truth I won't support anything Moore goes near. Kind of ironic that the background is yellow here, though

[John]

What Michael Moore left on the cutting room floor

By Helen Evans

Michael Moore's denunciation of America's health-care system is about to hit the silver screen. In the film's trailer, a desk attendant at a British hospital smiles while explaining that in Britain's National Health Service, "everything is free." But for free hospital care, Britons pay an awfully high price.

Just ask the nearly 1 million British patients on waiting lists for treatment. Or the 200,000 Britons currently waiting merely to get on NHS waiting lists. Mr. Moore must have missed those folks.

Curiously, though, many American policymakers seem to think that a government-managed, NHS-style system is the answer to all of America's health-care woes. Before heading down that road, however, America's leaders ought to actually investigate Britain's experience with state-sponsored medical care.

Upon launching its state health service in 1948, the British government promised that it would provide its citizens with all the "medical, dental and nursing care" needed, so that "everyoneÔÇörich or poorÔÇö[could] use it." To make good on its plans, the government nationalized more than 3,000 independent hospitals, clinics and care homes.

But today, after nearly six decades of attempting to make socialized medicine work, the NHS is in a perilous state.

Consider waiting lists. Across Britain, patients wait years for routineÔÇöor even emergencyÔÇötreatments. And many die while waiting.

Indeed, the NHS cancels around 100,000 operations because of shortages each year. In a growing number of communities, it is increasingly difficult for people to simply get an appointment with an NHS general practitioner for a regular checkup.

Further, when it comes to keeping patients healthy, NHS hospitals are notoriously unfit. After admittance to state hospitals, more than 10 percent of patients contract infections and illnesses that they did not have prior to arrival. And according to the Malnutrition Advisory Group, up to 60 percent of NHS patients are undernourished during inpatient stays.

Consequently, many Britons have turned to outside practitioners for treatment, and the private health-care market has boomed. Today, more than 6.5 million people have private medical insurance, 6 million have cash plans, 8 million pay out-of-pocket for a range of complimentary therapies, and 250,000 self-fund each year for private surgery. Millions more opt for private dentistry, ophthalmics and long-term care.

Meanwhile, despite the state's continued claims that it can deliver quality health care to all, government ministers are increasingly willing to quietly outsource health care to the private sector. In other words, instead of directly providing health care through the NHS, the British government is shifting to simply paying the bills.

In 2000, Tony Blair's government authorized the treatment of state-funded patients in private hospitals for the first time. More recently, the government has made it clear that it would like all NHS hospitals to be recast as Independent Foundation Trusts able to attract private investment.

But even with these efforts, the British government has found it hard to cover its expensive obligations. So in addition to waiting lists, substandard care and increased outsourcing, the government has adopted outright rationing to control costs.

Through a concept called "Health Technology Assessments," the United Kingdom now empowers government-appointed experts to dictate which drugs, procedures and treatments are available for public consumption. Charged with controlling costs and watching the bottom line, these bureaucrats are expected to save moneyÔÇönot lives.

Already, this system has barred the purchase of Herceptin, a lifesaving breast-cancer drug. Alzheimer's patients have had trouble obtaining Aricept, a drug that improves cognition in those afflicted with the degenerative disease.

The criteria for these denials of care are kept from the public. And patients who could be saved needlessly die.

Rationing, as history proves time and again, is always a recipe for horror.

The U.S. health-care system certainly has its shortfalls. But the solution to America's woes can't be found in the U.K.ÔÇöno matter how many movie tickets Mr. Moore sells.

Dr. Helen Evans is director of the UK-based advocacy group "Nurses for Reform".

This article was originally published in the Chicago Tribune.

[JackoliciousLegs]

Interesting. Well.. let's learn from the bad and shoot for something new.

[white_2kgt]

I'll never watch it, just b/c its moore, I wish he'd just choke on a tube steak and die

I know he's annoying and slanted, but please watch this one. It's actually very informative and doesn't bash bush that much. Its more of an indictment of the current healthcare system as a whole. It's very good, I promise.

Nope, he's a dipshit, always has been, always will be and so will everything he ever does, and so is everyone bitching that we need govt ran health care. We live in a free market economy, nobody's entitled to anything, if the govt would just sack up and let people die and shoot the left-wing bastards in their tree hugging hippy heads we wouldn't have the problem we have today.

[John]

if the govt would just sack up and let people die and shoot the left-wing bastards in their tree hugging hippy heads we wouldn't have the problem we have today.

Please add the envangelists and other brain washed masses to the target range as well please.

[white_2kgt]

if the govt would just sack up and let people die and shoot the left-wing bastards in their tree hugging hippy heads we wouldn't have the problem we have today.

Please add the envangelists....

looks like the Father is calling them home these days...

[BLINGMW]

So it's not on youtube anymore.... anyone know if it's still up elsewhere? I'd like to see what he has to say.

[Mike]

i can put the whole video online for you if you'd like...

[BLINGMW]

hey, if you can put up just a temporary link tonight without too much trouble, I'll DL it!

[Mike]

it's goin... i'll pm you the location of my backup.zip file