SiCKO and Healthcare

[JackoliciousLegs]

Ok, I was going to stay quiet...

I saw the movie and I've got to say this should be the least controversial Moore movie ever. Whether or not you like him, he's got some great points. Before I mention those, I'll talk about France for a minute. This also sort of applies to Canada and the UK, but I'll stick with France. France's unemployment is nearly double ours. They're racist. Their economy is at a standstill compared to ours. This can NOT be attributed to their healthcare though since many other countries are doing just fine with it, so leave your freedom fries out of this one.

I really like that Moore picks on Hilary in this movie. She deserves to be picked on for what she did.

That aside, it's truly sickening to me to see how conservatives trump up these allegations that socialized medicine doesn't support the idea of a free economy. The craziest thing is I've heard a lot of this rhetoric personally. "Universal healthcare will never work. It never worked in communist countries." etc. I've had the.. um... privilege... of being treated by the US, by Canada, by France and by Israel. Here's a quick rundown (keeping in mind that my healthcare in the US has always been covered by either BCBS or by the State Dept's medical insurance).

I was in Canada for 3 weeks visiting an old friend from Uganda. I spiked a fever, got a terrible sore throat and went to an urgent care clinic. I was in there for half a day with blood tests being done, throat cultures, etc. I found out I have strep and some other virus. I was given Rx meds. The whole time they made sure I knew it wasn't going to be free since I wasn't a citizen. A month later, I got a bill for $22.

I was in Israel about to get on a flight to head to the US. My appendix ruptured. I was in an ER for a couple hours before the flight. Blood tests, ultransounds, ER bed. They determined that it had ruptured and told me I was safe to fly but had to get to into surgery ASAP in the US. Free.

Get to France on the way and a social servant was there at the airport to greet me (Air France had notified their people on the ground because I was wailing in pain). I was wheelchaired, IVed and taken care of for the 6 hours I was there. Free.

I arrive in the US (back with my stellar State Dept insurance), get into surgery after they reverify every one of my symptoms. This takes 48 hours and nearly another day to get me into surgery. They were unable to confirm it was a ruptured appendix prior to surgery as the Israelis had. We asked them to remove the appendix anyways. After the surgery (because it had taken so long for the asshats to open me up) I had tubes hanging out of my open stomach wound for a week (longer than usually necessary for a ruptured appendix) and was in the hospital for 2 weeks total. Total cost: $14,000.

Last story, this fall, I broke my hand. I'm still on BCBS, lowest deductible, PPO plan, etc. ER visit, orthopedic surgeon visit, no surgery, one Rx. I was taken excellent care of. Total cost to me: ~$1500.

Oh last one. I was born in Israel and my little brother was born in Arlington. No significant difference in care except they didn't shoo my mom out in Israel and it was free.

So... I think the movie is a great portrayal of our system. It's what to expect from a for-profit healthcare system. The care is good. Definitely not the best. Just because we flow more money doesn't mean it's better. People get refused treatment. People go bankrupt because of illness. We have to find new, creative ways to get people to be able to pay for themselves. Our malpractice lawsuits are through the roof. Doctors are complaining about the pay dropping (Ive got 2 very close family members for whom, 200k is just not cutting it 2 years out of med school). This system is baaaROKE.

One more thing... This is horseshit. If it's not, explain the logic.

[CaptainHenreh]

I'll freely admit that Health Care in the United States is bro-bro-broken.

On the other hand, I'm not sure Socialized Medicine is the answer.

But frankly, I'd much rather see this be the hot-button election issue that "terror".

Anyway, the logic of "Socialized Medicine=Terror" is that even more illegal immigrants will come to the US and then when they blow themselves up they'll get FREE HEALTHCARE to repair them to do it again.

Or something.

[Mike]

i've downloaded the movie, but haven't watched it yet... i'll try to get some time next week.

[white_2kgt]

I'll never watch it, just b/c its moore, I wish he'd just choke on a tube steak and die

[JackoliciousLegs]

I'll never watch it, just b/c its moore, I wish he'd just choke on a tube steak and die

I know he's annoying and slanted, but please watch this one. It's actually very informative and doesn't bash bush that much. Its more of an indictment of the current healthcare system as a whole. It's very good, I promise.

[Ginger]

I'll never watch it, just b/c its moore, I wish he'd just choke on a tube steak and die

I know he's annoying and slanted, but please watch this one. It's actually very informative and doesn't bash bush that much. Its more of an indictment of the current healthcare system as a whole. It's very good, I promise.

I'm sure it's just as 'factual' as everything else he's produced, right?

Moore is a sensationalist disaster. I'm with Chad. I won't spend a single penny to support anything he's involved with.

[JackoliciousLegs]

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://digg.com/politics/CNN_Sicko_Facts_Check_Out">http://digg.com/politics/CNN_Sicko_Facts_Check_Out</a><!-- m -->

[Ginger]

Do you remember when he knocked on Charleton Heston's door and tried to pin guilt on him for Columbine? Or when he tried to blame Wal-Mart, too? Maybe the Sicko facts are correct, but because of what he's done in the past I wouldn't even spend the money on the DVD to hold a public burning of it.

[ScottyB]

Our malpractice lawsuits are through the roof.

one of Jen's neighbors has been a doctor for ages but is thinking of early retirement because of this. he says his job just isn't enjoyable anymore having to be afraid of getting your ass sued off for just about anything.

i, too, would rather see healthcare as a main issue than terrorism in the election.

[CaptainHenreh]

Even if our healthcare system is broken (And it IS) Michael Moore isn't the one to talk about it.

[MadFrog]

but I'll stick with France. France's unemployment is nearly double ours. They're racist. Their economy is at a standstill compared to ours.

<Samuel L Jackson's voice>I am trying real hard to be my brother's keeper here </Samuel L Jackson's voice>, but for anyone in America to come out and say with a straight fucking face that the french people as a whole are racist REALLY, REALLY chafes my ass.
yes, there are racial tensions and issues due to many things, including the un-employment rate, the high rate of immigration, the economy being generally depressed, etc. And some of those stories get on the news, worldwide.

But, as someone who was born in France and lived there until he was 17, and then has been living in the states for almost 20 years now, I can tell you without a doubt that on a day-to-day basis, the racism problem in america is actually a lot worse. More insidious, to be sure, and not as publicized, but it is bad. Still, to this day. And I don't see it getting any better.
So please, pretty please with pussy on top, STFU about France being racist.

And that's all I gotta say about that.

[.RJ]

[CaptainHenreh]

I unclog my nose in your direction, sons of a window dresser. So, you think you could outclever us french folks with your silly, knees-bent, running-about, advancing behavior? I wave my private parts at your aunties, you cheesy-leather, second-hand, electric donkey bottom biters!!!

[MadFrog]

No chance english bed-wetting types. I burst my pimples at you and call your door-opening request a silly thing; you tiny brained wipers of other peoples' bottoms.

[Goodspeed]

No chance english bed-wetting types. I burst my pimples at you and call your door-opening request a silly thing; you tiny brained wipers of other peoples' bottoms.

Shit happens. The two party system sucks, health care is a failure, the government is corrupt, people have been and always will be racist, life goes on.

What part of France are you from? I'm living there now, its nice.

[JackoliciousLegs]

I've spent plenty of time in France and I grew up in Djibouti and Morocco alongside French expats, going to French schools and I wouldn't say something like that without firsthand experience. That being said, I love France. I love French culture. I love French people. I love the French language. Racism does indeed exist there and the only reason I brought it up is because I was trying to convey that France is not some perfect utopia. It has its share of problems, but on the whole, it's a great place with a better health care process than the US. I just needed to move the other, non-relevant issues asside, and let the discussion be about healthcare.

Edit: I fart in you gen-er-al direction... english pig-dogs.

[Evan]

That aside, it's truly sickening to me to see how conservatives trump up these allegations that socialized medicine doesn't support the idea of a free economy.

so prove to me how turning a open market industry with consumer choice into a single source monopoly run by the government is a free economy? If its so screwed up under private business, why would eliminating competition and giving management to the federal government (and fine managers they have proven to be) be better?

The craziest thing is I've heard a lot of this rhetoric personally. "Universal healthcare will never work. It never worked in communist countries." etc. I've had the.. um... privilege... of being treated by the US, by Canada, by France and by Israel. Here's a quick rundown

because history has proven that it really doesnt work.
Its good to see that you got good treatment for emergency, life threatening conditions, but since 99.9% of the healthcare is not in the emergency room, if you would have lived in these countries your experience would be vastly different.
My uncle lived in england (before he died of a heart attack ) and everytime we would see him he was complaining about the british healthcare. 8 month+ wait to see a dentist, their daughter had been waiting for braces for over 2 years, they HATED it immensely.
In Canada 50% of all emergency room wait times are considered 'unacceptable'
If socialized healthcare is so great then why do thousands of canadians check into American hospitals for treatment?
Hell, even the officials who sing its praises use private healthcare

I had tubes hanging out of my open stomach wound for a week (longer than usually necessary for a ruptured appendix) and was in the hospital for 2 weeks total. Total cost: $14,000.

dont downplay a ruptured appendix like it is no big deal. I have had a appendix surgery myself, and I know someone who died from a ruptured appendix. Letting the rupture drain for 1 week is actually pretty short. I have heard of people being up for a month.

So if the system is indeed broken, which I wont argue with, then how is government run healthcare the answer?
How about instead of running into the arms of more governmental control we look at the reasons why healthcare is broken and fix them, instead of throwing the whole thing on the fire?
This is a good quote from Eric Novack, M.D., a Board Certified Orthopedic Surgeon in Arizona
"Single-payer advocates speak in broad generalities of fairness and justice and risk pools-which sounds great to the public, but is short on actual policy implementation. . . To learn about the details of single-payer advocates, you actually need to read the legislation they are promoting. Here's the basics: unelected bureaucrats are given complete control over budgets that far exceed individual state spending (i.e. in Arizona, the single-payer plan would give a 9 member unelected group complete control over a budget [$30 billion] nearly 3 times the size of the entire state budget [about $11 billion]. . . Patients are explicitly banned from paying, with their own money, for any treatment, test or service, that has not been authorized by the faceless bureaucracy."




and as far as SiCKO being uncontroversial, dont kid yourself. Emotional exploitation and cherry picked sob stories do not make for an airtight case.
Even MTV blasted the movie for being a flaming pile of bullshit
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.mtv.com/movies/news/articles/1563758/story.jhtml">http://www.mtv.com/movies/news/articles ... tory.jhtml</a><!-- m -->

[MadFrog]

I was born in Paris, lived in Cannes as a little kid (until I was 6) and then out in the hills (literally) about 80 miles out of Lyon.

I am also very familiar with the racism problem on both sides of the pond. My uncle is Algerian (married my aunt - my grand parents and parents were racists - what was fun!), his kids were born in Casablanca and then moved to Paris to finish high school.
In america, I worked in a 7-11 for some time, right across from a subsidized housing apartment complex and met a bunch of folks from many different cultural heritages.
Inter racial relations suck, regardless of where you are.

I understand what you were trying to convey, but your delivery sucked.

[John]

Sure the system is broken, but it'll never be repaired since it's irreversible. Biggest problem? The American entitlement mentality. Health care is not a right - take some responsibility in your life for preventive care. Federal regulation of drugs artificially inflates the market and limits consumer choice to other forms of treatment. Medical torts are careless and exuberent to the point where it's a lose-lose situation for everybody. Remember, in America, it's always somebody else's fault.

However, if by some miracle, it was possible, what would we need to do to improve? Eliminate the AMA and ADA monopolies, disband the FDA, base health insurance off of genuine risk (like auto insurance), and reform our tort laws.

[JackoliciousLegs]

so prove to me how turning a open market industry with consumer choice into a single source monopoly run by the government is a free economy? If its so screwed up under private business, why would eliminating competition and giving management to the federal government (and fine managers they have proven to be) be better?

It's an option that works for other countries.

because history has proven that it really doesnt work.

Ok, obviously our sources differ here. You have Kurt Loder. I have myself. Loder argues that there are sever wait times for some procedures. Short staffed doctors' offices don't mean the system is broken. It means they have too few doctors.

Ok, so we agree the system is broken. I just think that a for-profit system will not work. That does not agree with the principal of a free market everything society. We can't stop people from using private healthcare, but what we can do is raise taxes and stop funding private companies with our tax dollars. We can form a non-profit organization that has government oversight and government funding to take care of the american people. It's that simple.