Preventing school shootings

[HAULN-SS]

Yeah - the guy definately bought the guns legally, even went through the waiting process. Also - it wouldnt matter if they had serial numbers, in this particular case you could have used them to go back to the FFL - the guy in roanoke who he bought them from, who, since he runs a business, would have told them who he sold them to. But in general, the FFL doesnt have to tell anyone shit - and you don't have to register firearms in VA. Also - guns can be gifted, just like anything else, so the gun could have originally been sold 25 years ago..fat chance finding anything about it then.

one other point to make - if more people carried guns, I bet people would be a lot nicer to each other. I've been out west hunting and such, and a lot of people there are carrying, pretty much all the time - and big time NRA people. Nobody gets out of line, people are nice to each other. Would you want to piss off a guy who has a 1 in 10 chance of carrying right then? And he's thinking the same thing. In places like this (south dakota in particular) the murder index hasn't changed in 40 years.

[Kaan]

In the tragedy that just happened in Blacksburg, both pistols had the serial numbers filed off. Signs they were black market fire arms.

i don't think that's this case - reports said the guns were bought by him (one last fall and one last friday). in the reports of the search warrant of his room they found a dremel case and a dremel. i think it can safely be assumed that he removed the serial numbers with the dremel.

well then he really was crazy and/or thought he was going to get away wtih it. what would be the point of filing the numbers off a gun that is legally registered to you unless you were going to wipe them down and pitch them? I know the glock has 4 serial numbers, one of which you cant get to without a special glock tool that is needed to take the gun fully apart. the other three are on the barrel, the stock, and the slide.

[HAULN-SS]

That's probably how they tracked them to the place in roanoke - he probably didnt know about that.

Man, all this gun talk makes me want to go shoot my .357 and make some noise. Heh.

[JackoliciousLegs]

Ryan, the issue with what NY does is that it only has stricter laws about concealed weapons. People can still get them with relative ease. What I'm asking is why they're there at all.

Its just like every other political issue, theres no solution to any problem, no matter how you address it.

<terry> don't bring that weak ass shit up in this humpty bumpty!!!</terry>

Rex, guns are weapons. They're not like knives that can be used to open boxes. They're not like bombs that can be used to clear rubble. They are weapons with the sole purpose of inflicting harm. Whether or not that harm is in self defense or for any justified means is another issue.

Now that that's out of the way, I'm not suggesting that we disregard the constitution. I was simply asking theoretically, why we need guns today? I know that we're granted that right. I know why we were granted it. I'm just asking, that aside, why we need it now. Don't think that I want some sort of state controlled mess. You know I'm not batshit crazy. I'm just liberal. Interestingly enough, when I line my views up people in other first world countries, I line up more with moderates. I'm just very liberal when the frame of reference is the current US political system.

Now Rex, your last issue is the most pertinent. VT was a tragedy. Psychopaths indeed have no regard for the law. I know. I started a different thread to talk about gun control in general. I just had to wonder what it'd take to have the US revisit its gun control policy.

On a tangent, I like how you mentioned freedom of religion. Maybe, after this thread fizzles, I'll start that one up...

I'm all for gun control. I see little reason to have a gun thats not locked up when not in use. But I like my guns, and screw anyone who wants to take them away from me.

Good for you. Enjoy your guns. Go hunting. Target shooting. Caged quail hunting. Whatever strikes your fancy. But at least you admitted that you agree with gun control and that they should be locked up. Not in your pocket.

G, the best rebuttal by far, and exactly what I was hoping to get. So, playing devil's advocate, I'm now in agreement with you. I think we should be allowed to have guns because people should never cede total power to their government. However, in today's modern age, do you think that my lousy .22 and my glock will do anything against the military? Will it save me from a bunker buster? Will it save me against a tank? How about an F-22? A gun is such a primitive weapon today that it's almost laughable that we'd consider it a defense against the US government should it turn hostile.

You mentioned prohibition and I think you're right about it. We'd stir up a shitstorm if we tried to ban guns. It wouldn't happen.

You sort of followed the same path at the end as Rex saying that this is a tragedy and completely unavoidable. Shit happens. It does and I understand. Again though, as above, what needs to happen before we revisit our gun control policy.

Rather than trying to outlaw guns maybe we should spend more time on the cultural factors that lead to violence in this country.

I agree 100%.

Tighter laws do not prevent determined individuals from success, they only serve to restrict the rights of those who actually choose to follow the rules.

Good point, and I agree. So... how do we stop this from happening? What's the root of the problem? Apathy? (see this) Miseducation? Lack thereof? My question from above was, what can we do to make it harder for crazies to not get their hands on a handgun?

I think those in society that desire to own a firearm should be able to, after much more extensive background checks and exams.

Agreed. I'll stay away from your church and state stuff. (again, save it for later) I think that when you mentioned failed parenting, I agree 100%.

We can't reform the govt but we sure can reform laws. We can try to tighten gun laws. We can set up some sort of safety education. We can reduce apathy by encouraging people to participate more actively in the political system. I don't know about you, but my political fervor arose after I left public K-12.

even if I do get in a vicious fight in London and I get my ass kicked, the damage is contained to what people can do with their own hands.

such as kill you?

Yup. They can kill me. But I can at least have a fair chance to look them in the eyes before I go.

I read this thread and decided it was time to clean my gunS, thanks Jack, I had forgotten about them.

You are hilarious :-)

its just one of those things we have to live with in our society. Its a shame that some people are evil...once again, something we must live with. I just wish there had been someone with a concealed carry permit and a level head in that first classroom/dorm...That is the only practical way this would have been stopped.

I would like to avoid having to carry a gun to feel safe (as I mentioned above). I'm looking for other ideas. People are going to do bad things. They can run people over, shoot them... I mean, get creative. How do we avoid it...

I'm just going to throw this out there for the sake of discussion and see if anyone chooses to respond to it.... The root of most of middle-class America's social issues are due to a two working parent household.

I love you. Thank you. G brought up excellent rebuttals later though. Still, I think parental apathy is a HUGE problem in our society.

having tighter gun laws and making it more difficult to obtain guns wont really stop pyschopaths that want to kill people. sure, it might weed out some of the borderline crazies, but it also limits those with legitimate reasons and responsible gun owners which is probably like 99% of them.

What do the other 99% of them do? Scott mentioned that we drive cars fast and waste gas. imo, that hardly equates with practicing to use a gun in a situation like VT's.

Instead of trying to regulate each and everything thing EVERYONE does it would be better to teach people how to spot troubled individuals. So many students have come out to say he was a loaner, didn't talk, etc. Maybe had someone reported this to the proper person (spend the money there) they could have talked to him and gotten him help.

Wow... for once... I (hesitate to say this) agree with you. (eww... I feel gross. j/k :-) ) See apathy above.


Ok, sorry it took me so long to respond to all of this. Either way, I think we're making progress. There's a lot of consent around stricter gun control laws (not 100%) but there is damn near an agreement on more social reform. Whether that be classroom education, or a call to end apathy among parents, teachers, classmates, etc. We could not have stopped this guy... except if someone had taken that guy's writings directly to the school and/or police. People probably didn't want to offend him. IMO, that writing goes WAY beyond creative license and delves deep into the world of the insane and dangerously masochistic.

[Kaan]

In the tragedy that just happened in Blacksburg, both pistols had the serial numbers filed off. Signs they were black market fire arms. Even in the legal retail world, the two fire arms used were worth no more than $700.

I don't know where you heard that but he bought the guns at Roanoke Firearms for $571 along w/ 50 rounds,
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Submitting English papers to you teacher that depict mass killings and other 'morbid' things is a cry for help, had he been offered help, he just might have taken it rather than the guns.

The .22 walthers were $200-250 at the last gun show i went to. And i bought my glock in Hburg for $421 with 50 rounds and a cleaning kit!

my last year at JMU most of my friends had fire arms. we had sigs, walthers, glocks, H&Ks, etc. all different calibers. we used to go to the range out on 33 and stop at the junk yard on the way. we'd get an old fridge, keg, car door, etc and test the different rounds and calibers on the different objects. Unfortunately i lost the write up that i had, but i do own the "best" stopping rounds for a 9mm... and they are tactically stacked . and yes i have round that should punch through body armor.

[Kaan]

bunker busters and F22s? just make it easier for me to get my hands on an AK or M16 and then go read todays struggles in Iraq. Civil war is a bitch... its not typcial fighting... and thats what the 2nd ammendment allows.

[JackoliciousLegs]

I missed a lot. Kaan, I think the one argument I have for you is, why should I have to carry a gun to feel safe. I know how to wedge a door. More likely, I'm not afraid to jump out of a window.

[HAULN-SS]

I'm pretty sure I saw a guy on TV open a beer with a gun once ;x

[HAULN-SS]

Damn, Kaan beat me to it - was going to say to ask the military how good small arms fire is working out against them when they have F-22s, and no bunkers to bust - just a bunch of townies with nothing bigger caliber than a 7.62

[Apoc]

Either way, I think we're making progress. There's a lot of consent around stricter gun control laws (not 100%) but there is damn near an agreement on more social reform. Whether that be classroom education, or a call to end apathy among parents, teachers, classmates, etc. We could not have stopped this guy... except if someone had taken that guy's writings directly to the school and/or police. People probably didn't want to offend him. IMO, that writing goes WAY beyond creative license and delves deep into the world of the insane and dangerously masochistic.

I think the bottom line is people don't care about people. Our society is so detached that we don't care about our peers, we don't care about kids and we certainly don't care about the asshole blocking the road in front of us. Our day to day lives are about us, our jobs and keeping up with the Jones', we don't have time to worry about others. It takes a village not only to raise a child but to create a society where people don't feel alone and resort to lashing out. We don't live in a village/tribe lifestyle any more... no matter how warm and fuzzily we talk about communities (college campus, neighborhood, congregation) being one big happy family... and that's why things like this happen.

[Kaan]

I missed a lot. Kaan, I think the one argument I have for you is, why should I have to carry a gun to feel safe. I know how to wedge a door. More likely, I'm not afraid to jump out of a window.

Because the bad guy has a gun. Jack you personally dont have to carry a gun. Thats all up to you! But relaxing some of the gun laws would allow some of the public (read: people like me... trained and good with a fire arm) to carry more often. I feel safe with one and without a gun... but if the laws were more favorable to carry i think violent crime just might go down. there is always that chance that someone is going to bring equal force to a criminal...

you want to stop school shootings... you have two options... let people carry onto school grounds... or put a police officer in every class room. which one makes more sense?

[HAULN-SS]

On a side note to kaan - I thought DC just overturned the ban on firearms in the city? I know you still can't carry - but I think you can at least have them in your house..or maybe that's not in effect yet because it got so many appeals after they overturned it...but they'd almost have to let you have them in your car if that's the case, for transport to/from places.

[CaptainHenreh]

Rex, guns are weapons. They're not like knives that can be used to open boxes. They're not like bombs that can be used to clear rubble. They are weapons with the sole purpose of inflicting harm. Whether or not that harm is in self defense or for any justified means is another issue.

Now that that's out of the way, I'm not suggesting that we disregard the constitution. I was simply asking theoretically, why we need guns today? I know that we're granted that right. I know why we were granted it. I'm just asking, that aside, why we need it now. Don't think that I want some sort of state controlled mess. You know I'm not batshit crazy.

Jack, your silly hippie bullshit doublespeak entertains me to no end.

Tell me, since guns have no practical use other than to inflict harm, and we don't need them, then why do we have these:

Or these:

Or these:


If you're going to eliminate things with no practical purpose, why stop at guns?

We don't need this:

Or this:

And we sure as hell don't need any of these:


I mean, they have no *practical* use. They are a waste of resources, and dangerous to boot. After all, the highest speed limit in the US is 80MPH, why do we have automobiles that go above that? If we didn't waste all of our nation's resources on fancy cars, we'd be able to have safe, efficient public transportation! Sports cars are dangerous, people get killed. Statistics prove it!

And yet, our founding fathers gave no protection, no right to transportation. I don't see any amendment that says "The right of the people to own and use modes of transportation shall not be infringed."

But the constitution is "outdated", so fuck it, let's just ignore it.

And while we're keeping everyone safe, we'll eliminate this:

And these:

Oh, and this is a public safety hazard for sure:

And I can't find a picture of Kaans widowmakers, but you can sure as FUCK put those on the list. Whew! The scent of those will put plaque in your arteries.

I know you'll say I'm just using hyperbole, but more people are killed by the shit above than by guns.

[Kaan]

On a side note to kaan - I thought DC just overturned the ban on firearms in the city? I know you still can't carry - but I think you can at least have them in your house..or maybe that's not in effect yet because it got so many appeals after they overturned it...but they'd almost have to let you have them in your car if that's the case, for transport to/from places.

that law was not passed. they are dodging the bill and it keeps getting shoved around and pushed back. funny part is one of its biggest supporter of the bill is the old mayor barry!

[BLINGMW]

And we sure as hell don't need any of these:

yiikes I agree if it's that color! hock:

[HAULN-SS]

Ah, I was under the impression it passed, and then immediately pushed into an appeals court. I don't know why they wouldnt - the murder numbers in DC are ridiculous - and they aren't cutting people up. So the criminals clearly don't give a crap about the laws, and the normal citizens can't have any modern weapons in their home to protect themselves. (I think 1973 was the year after everthing had to be grandfathered in or something, right?)

[Kaan]

[

And I can't find a picture of Kaans widowmakers, but you can sure as FUCK put those on the list. Whew! The scent of those will put plaque in your arteries.

those two things are very dear to me... dont you dare!

[Jeff]

I want one of those pimp-ass canes!! And a Viper...and a bigmac...oh hell, and an m-16 w/100rnd drum!!! I love America

[Kaan]

btw a knife is tactically deadly to someone with a drawn gun up to 21 feet. sporks for everyone!

[WRXtranceformed]

I for one would not feel safer knowing that most of the putzes I see walking around campus could be carrying guns. Especially when the sun goes down and the beer pong tables start to empty. I've stared down the barrel of a gun before and it is not a fun thing to go through. I'm all for people having the right to bear arms, but I personally think firearms generally bring more trouble than they prevent.

I agree with Apoc 100% actually. This is a fact of life for our society now. We are self-centered and self-concerned. I know this because I fit that mold to an absolute tee =P I could give two shits about some jealous, troubled kid who thinks the world is against him... so maybe people like me are part of the problem.

I just don't see anything changing for our society, ever. The way we think of ourselves is such a fundamental part of our society that it will likely never change, unless we face an extinction level event or something extremely drastic that forces us to join together as a common community. Even then, I would see chaos ensuing before communal bonding....look what happened in New Orleans...