Preventing school shootings

[JackoliciousLegs]

The other thread should be limited to details relating to the VT incident so I started this one as a *friendly* discussion of what we should do as a nation to prevent this from happening again.

It seems like after Columbine, not much around the US has changed. I'm sure most of you can guess what I think about guns in general, let alone guns without serious background/psychological checks. In my opinion, your opinions can fall into one of two categories because of basic human nature. Either you feel that we should all be armed, or that no one at all should carry guns.

In the first case, the defense would be, "Jack, if anyone in those classrooms had been packing, that shooting spree would've been over *much* sooner." Indeed, if a well trained shooter were in the classroom with a concealed weapon, they would've had a chance to end the spree. The downside to that is so plainly obvious, I barely feel that I have to state it. I should not have to feel obligated to carry a gun in order to feel safe when going to class. Full stop.

In the second case, the killer wouldn't have been able to walk into a walmart and buy a gun. The counter argument is, "Jack, you'll inevitably create a black market for guns and the rate of violent incidents will go up." I guess the rebuttal is two-fold. If I'm in London and I get in a fight, I could expect to get beaten to a pulp. I would *never* expect someone to pull out a gun and shoot me. I witnessed a fight between some gang members and some marines in Chicago and I was genuinely worried for *my* safety because of the possibility of a gun being in one of their possessions. The point of this is that, even if there's a black market for guns, it would keep most crazy nerds with death wishes away from them. You have to really try in most 1st world places to acquire a firearm. The second part of that is, even if I do get in a vicious fight in London and I get my ass kicked, the damage is contained to what people can do with their own hands. It adds a personal element to killing. You don't even have to look someone in the face to kill them with a gun.

Alright, now what if you're in between. Strict gun control, or just letting people be their own moral compasses and hope that this doesn't happen. Obviously, that's not working. It's not because of video games. It's not because we're the only country with guns (we're not). We've just proven to ourselves that our citizens are not responsible enough to own them. If we haven't proven that, we've at least proven that we need MUCH stronger gun control. A kid that produced those plays shouldn't be let near anything much more dangerous than a plastic spoon.

I sometimes strongly question a lot of our country's current motives for maintaining several beliefs that seem very antiquated. This isn't the only one. Other's include the idea that this is a Christian nation (<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html">http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html</a><!-- m -->). That's another story... I'm about to go off on a tangent. Either way, when we founded this country, we needed guns. Any day, the Brits could've come charging our shores and we would've needed guns to defend our families. Any day, banditos could've raided our settlements and taken our money and food. We could've been attacked by Indians. The list goes on. Today, we use guns for sport. We shoot at targets. Even better, we shoot at deer and other wildlife... and not to eat it (some do... I know... but do you really need to get a hard on before you eat?). My favorite is, we shoot at fucking caged animals. We pay someone to release animals in a contained area so we can hunt. Seriously. This should be sounding off alarms in everyone's heads. Of all the insane, but somehow justified stupidities of our people, what is that????!!!

Ok, so I'm done for now. Please, someone... PLEASE tell me why we need guns in our society. Don't give me a BS answer like, "it's in our constitution" or "we want to hunt". Don't tell me it'd be too hard to clean our country of guns. Don't tell me it's to protect ourselves from our own government or any other conspiracy theory. Seriously, tell me why an industrialized, militarily fortified, first world superpower needs to let civilians have access to guns.

[Ryan T]

There are really two schools of thought on this debate, in my opinion:

#1
Civilians are not allowed to carry concealed weapons and you depend 100% on police response. Civilians are at the mercy of criminals who get guns legally or illegally.

Just because the murderer in this instance got his gun legally does not mean he wouldn't have gotten it illegally if permits were not available. This happens every day.

#2
Civilians are allowed to carry concealed weapons. You do your best to educate and train them and apply realistic rules. There will always be a small amount of maniacs who get the guns legally and snap and kill their partner, a driver that cuts them off, etc.

Which body count would be higher?

Texas believes #2 is better. NYC believes #1 is better.

Personally, I like #2 myself.

Neither one is perfect, but at least I have a chance with #2

[NTIman]

You're screwed if you do, screwed if you don't.

Its just like every other political issue, theres no solution to any problem, no matter how you address it.

[CaptainHenreh]

Ok, so I'm done for now. Please, someone... PLEASE tell me why we need guns in our society. Don't give me a BS answer like, "it's in our constitution" or "we want to hunt". Don't tell me it'd be too hard to clean our country of guns. Don't tell me it's to protect ourselves from our own government or any other conspiracy theory. Seriously, tell me why an industrialized, militarily fortified, first world superpower needs to let civilians have access to guns.

Why do we need guns, indeed? Guns only do harm, that pesky second amendment is worthless.

And why stop there? I mean, getting a warrant is such a hassle. This shooting could have been prevented if the Police had just been able to examine each and every person's personal effects at any time. Heck, all gun crime could be eliminated with that one! In fact, if we ban all guns (except for Law Enforcement, of course), making sure no nasty, illegal guns are around will be a cinch!

And, while we're at it, anybody with a gun must be intending to commit a crime with it. After all, as you say, guns are only used for nefarious or barbaric purposes. So there's no need to hold to such silly notions as trials or juries, I mean, they have guns! That'll make other crimes pretty easy to enforce too.

And all these guilty Barbarians will be punished, of course. We'll think of something good. No need to spare anything for those evil, plotting anarchists!

And since we'll then finally have a peaceful society, there'll be no need for anyone to speak out against the government! It'll be perfect! The media will take it's cues from the government (which is perfect) and we'll all have Unitarian Quiet Services on Sunday (or really, any day you wish) and speaking out will be unheard of! Unless you're a criminal, of course, in which case society will soon be free of your burden.

Won't that be wonderful?

Get your head out of your ass, Jack. You can't say "Tell me why we need guns, but don't mention the Constitution!" Why do you need your freedom of speech, Jack? What about your freedom to worship as you please, or to peaceably assemble? You weren't using that right to a Jury trial, so let's just toss it out the window! It's inconvenient! Why, Juries consist of people! And people can sometimes be wrong! Which means criminals might go free! Let's just toss that out!

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Notice it doesn't say "The right of the people to bear arms for hunting purposes will not be infringed." Oh, and before you get all "The Militia=National Guard" on me, The US Code Disagrees with you.

The VT Shooting is a terrible tragedy. Please do not turn it into a gun control issue. Psychopaths have no regard for the law.

[NTIman]

I'm all for gun control. I see little reason to have a gun thats not locked up when not in use.

But I like my guns, and screw anyone who wants to take them away from me.

[G.Irish]

Ok, so I'm done for now. Please, someone... PLEASE tell me why we need guns in our society. Don't give me a BS answer like, "it's in our constitution" or "we want to hunt". Don't tell me it'd be too hard to clean our country of guns. Don't tell me it's to protect ourselves from our own government or any other conspiracy theory. Seriously, tell me why an industrialized, militarily fortified, first world superpower needs to let civilians have access to guns.

The 2nd Amendment has zero to do with hunting or entertainment and everything to do with having a means of defending yourself against crime and more specifically, tyranny.

Yeah you think that we can trust our government today, but who's to say where we'll be 10, 20, 50, or 100 years down the line. A people that has no means of revolting against an unjust government is effectively enslaved and powerless. I'd like to think we won't ever have another revolution or civil war but no one has the benefit of being able to see the future. Bottom line for me is that I don't universally trust people and I definitely don't trust politicians. Politicians run the government therefore I will never willingly cede that kind of power to them.

Besides, this country was founded on the premise that one should be able to do whatever the hell they want, as long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of others. Pre-emptively disarming citizens certainly leads down the road to a totalitarian government where citizens are nothing more than helpless children.

The price of being free to do what you want is that others are free to do what they want to you. The price that has already been paid is that 100's of thousands of Americans have given their lives to protect and uphold the Constitution. Its tragic that 30 students died yesterday but that pales in comparison to the blood spilt to protect our freedoms. If me or any of my family is killed in by gun violence I'll surely mourn, but I'll never dare to denegrate the sacrifices of the people who have fought for our freedoms.

Also note that other countries have gun laws that are similar, or even more lax than ours but have much less gun violence. Rather than trying to outlaw guns maybe we should spend more time on the cultural factors that lead to violence in this country. Because even if by some act of lunacy the 2nd Amendment were appealed, there is absolutely no way it could be enforced. That alone would probably touch off widespread civil unrest and violence. Hell, we couldn't even ban alcohol.

At the end of the day no one is at fault but the man who committed the crime.

Truth is that this type of shooting is very difficult to prevent period. The only thing that can stop a lone gunman attempting to murder civilians in a crowded places is other civilians acting on their own to stop him. This could've happened at a shopping mall, concert, football game, nightclub, or anywhere else where there are people gathered. You could ban guns but that would only give lone gunmen more of an advantage in that situation. I mean, we've banned drugs and we all see how effective that has been.

[Apoc]

Rather than trying to outlaw guns maybe we should spend more time on the cultural factors that lead to violence in this country.

I had a long post halfway typed out but that pretty much sums up my thoughts. Gun control is treating the symptoms, not the disease.

I do not own a gun and have never owned one but I'm of the belief that it's not my right, or my government's, to retrict that right of others. Tighter laws do not prevent determined individuals from success, they only serve to restrict the rights of those who actually choose to follow the rules.

Weren't most, if not all, if the Columbine guns obtained illegally?

[Goodspeed]

Well, I think social reform and a government overhaul is much more important than gun control, because "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is unfortunately true.

I think those in society that desire to own a firearm should be able to, after much more extensive background checks and exams. But more importantly, the half-trillion dollars we have spent on Iraq could've gone to strengthening our borders, improving our police forces and providing education and after school activities to minorities and areas-in-need to both reduce the flow of illegal firearms and to effectively change our society to rid of gang culture.

Take a look at this article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/stor...48,00.html

In it, Tony Blair blames a recent rash of crime on black culture and not poverty in general. This is one way to look at things. Screw being PC and go after the source of the problem.

But why is the problem there? The answer (and yes, its this easy): Government oppression mixed with misleading media. A government that victimizes a minority mixed with a media that makes poverty stricken kids think they can be basketball stars and rich rappers is a bad mix; when those same kids realize that they don't have a chance in life of becoming rich, or in many cases respectable, they turn to crime. (and guns).

Take a look at Europe. Drug laws are lax, prison sentences are even laxer, and they don't have guns. But they do oppress minorities, such as north Africans in France. If those guys had access to guns, things would have been much worse.

The answer is to strengthen gun laws, vastly reduce the size of as well as reform government, and reform the media to be more realistic.

REALITY CHECK: The government will never be drastically reformed. Tradition and stubborness will disallow any major gun reform. And hell will freeze before our media will ever change. So you might as well go out and buy a lot of guns before that immigrant kills you!

Narcissistic, but The Truth:

You're screwed if you do, screwed if you don't.

Its just like every other political issue, theres no solution to any problem, no matter how you address it.

As for the specifics of school shootings, kids these days are so messed up (media again). No, GTA doesn't make kids kill people. Parents need to take a freaking interest in their kids and stop pumping them full of anti-depressants while leaving it to the teachers and schools to parent their children. If, by your kids senior year, he wants to shoot people in the face with a sawed off shotgun a la Doom while throwing pipe bombs filled with broken glass and nails at their high school, then you've failed as a parent.

And as for the seperation of church and state, well, nobody gives a damn about that anymore it seems. That 1st amendment (or the way Tommy Jefferson interpreted it) can be ignored, but dammit you bastards on the hill better abide by that 2nd one!!

Rather than trying to outlaw guns maybe we should spend more time on the cultural factors that lead to violence in this country.

I had a long post halfway typed out but that pretty much sums up my thoughts. Gun control is treating the symptoms, not the disease.

I do not own a gun and have never owned one but I'm of the belief that it's not my right, or my government's, to retrict that right of others. Tighter laws do not prevent determined individuals from success, they only serve to restrict the rights of those who actually choose to follow the rules.

Weren't most, if not all, if the Columbine guns obtained illegally?

Good, very good. But wouldn't social reform + tighter laws (just for shits) = Win?

The Columbine guns were obtained illegally through some guy at a local Pizza Hut that just so happened to have a fatal shooting in after the Columbine killings.

I'm sure if John Adams and friends were alive today, they'd be all like "What the fuck is wrong with you people! You don't have any more redcoats trying to take away your freedoms! Bush, you bastard, stop reading your citizen's mail!". The Constitution, though nice and probably of a musky, old papery scent, is a little out of touch with modern society (at least parts of it).

[ScottyB]

even if I do get in a vicious fight in London and I get my ass kicked, the damage is contained to what people can do with their own hands.

such as kill you?

i also wouldn't argue on people's interpretation's of sport and leisure, which involve guns. we as car enthusiasts could be interpreted as morons for aimlessly wasting fuel and other resources on driving our cars around for fun instead of going simply from A to B in a minimally powered vehicle. and when we screw up, people can die just the same.

[Jeff]

I read this thread and decided it was time to clean my gunS, thanks Jack, I had forgotten about them. Getting rid of guns is not the answer. It is rather annoying to me that I have to wait 2 weeks to buy the 9mm Makarov I am going to get next week. Once I get that CC class out of the way then I can get them same day. :twisted:

If people want to do this kind of thing they will do it regardless of the laws. I'm not saying to throw up our hands, but I think most gun laws simply hurt those of us that use them as a hobby and for other uses inside the law. Waiting periods for unlicensed people are good. Age limitations are good. Background checks...good. But I don't see what else can be done besides taking them away from the citizens.

That is something I KNOW is not going to happen...why? Just ask the muzzle flash. Its almost a moot point, its just one of those things we have to live with in our society. Its a shame that some people are evil...once again, something we must live with. I just wish there had been someone with a concealed carry permit and a level head in that first classroom/dorm...That is the only practical way this would have been stopped.

[Apoc]

Rather than trying to outlaw guns maybe we should spend more time on the cultural factors that lead to violence in this country.

I had a long post halfway typed out but that pretty much sums up my thoughts. Gun control is treating the symptoms, not the disease.

I do not own a gun and have never owned one but I'm of the belief that it's not my right, or my government's, to retrict that right of others. Tighter laws do not prevent determined individuals from success, they only serve to restrict the rights of those who actually choose to follow the rules.

Weren't most, if not all, if the Columbine guns obtained illegally?

Good, very good. But wouldn't social reform + tighter laws (just for shits) = Win?

I didn't mean to say that there shouldn't be a waiting period or perhaps a more lengthy background check, only that I'm against preventing people from owning guns. I mean let's face it, this guy bought the gun legally, a month in advance and seemed to have really planned the thing out. He had no priors and nothing popped in his background check so it's likely more restrective laws wouldn't have prevented this. I know that's not what you inferred, just throwing it out there for people who say tighter gun laws could have prevented this.

I'm just going to throw this out there for the sake of discussion and see if anyone chooses to respond to it.... The root of most of middle-class America's social issues are due to a two working parent household.

[G.Irish]

I didn't mean to say that there shouldn't be a waiting period or perhaps a more lengthy background check, only that I'm against preventing people from owning guns. I mean let's face it, this guy bought the gun legally, a month in advance and seemed to have really planned the thing out. He had no priors and nothing popped in his background check so it's likely more restrective laws wouldn't have prevented this. I know that's not what you inferred, just throwing it out there for people who say tighter gun laws could have prevented this.

Bingo. I think the thing that happens with something like this is that a bunch of people jump up and down and holler about how this could've been prevented if someone had done X, Y, and Z. In my mind there are just things that are just damned near impossible to prevent if you want to have a free country.

If you really want to talk about death, over 40,000 people are killed in car accidents. But it would be damned near impossible to prevent every automobile death. So what do you do? You go on about your business dealing with and mitigating that risk every day. Sure, there are some practical things that can be done to prevent deaths like better active and passive safety in vehicles, well designed road signs, and better driver training. But that still doesn't change the fact that people will screw up.

And as Chris says, this guy's background check came back clear, he did the waiting period and this still happened. Shit happens.

I'm just going to throw this out there for the sake of discussion and see if anyone chooses to respond to it.... The root of most of middle-class America's social issues are due to a two working parent household.

Eh, that's hard to say. While there are definitely more two working parent households today than there were 50 or 100 years ago, that doesn't mean it is at all correlated with violence in this case. Maybe it is a factor that contributes to some types of violence though.

But to draw a parallel you'd have to look at other countries and I'm pretty sure in a lot of Western households both parents work, yet they don't have anywhere near the amount of violence we do. I think there are bigger cultural factors at work.

[Maengelito]

as has been said numerous times in this thread, having tighter gun laws and making it more difficult to obtain guns wont really stop pyschopaths that want to kill people. sure, it might weed out some of the borderline crazies, but it also limits those with legitimate reasons and responsible gun owners which is probably like 99% of them. hell, cars kill more people than guns do, many more. we've got tons of licensing and restrictions to owning and driving a car. does that mean cars should be outlawed? i'm not saying that gun violence is inevitable even though i wish it was, but you have isolated incidents that make headlines and all of a sudden the whole world is out of control. if you have a crazy bastard i dont think stricter gun laws would've made him rethink his plan. people don't just go shoot people because they have a gun. theres clearly something wrong with this guy that caused him to want to inflict harm on others. reality is that you're not safe anywhere at anytime. a burgalar could break into your home and stab you, a drunk person could run you over, you could get hit by a bus or a bird could shit on your favorite t-shirt. but does that mean you have to live your life in fear? these are mostly rare and isolated incidents and keeping yourself in situations where this is not likely to happen is really the only thing you can do. you can't have your freedom to do what you want and be safe from people who want to do what they want too.

edit: god damnit gerald, you beat me to my basic points too

[white_2kgt]

I'm keeping my guns, why? Because I own them legally, this is a free country and taking my guns away from me isn't going to do a damn thing to prevent this kind of thing. This kid wanted to kill people, he went out and bought a gun and clips and ammo to do this WELL in advance. He didn't buy a Glock 19 (the 19 means 19 ROUNDS per clip) because he gets a sore finger from pushing the clip release button. He bought a BUNCH of ammo and extra clips, he knew what he was going to do. He could have just as easily been turned down to purchase a gun and went out and bought 50lbs of fert and diesel fuel and made a BOMB, now what? You going to take that away from me too? So now my lawn looks like shit and I can't drive my Superduty truck, what's next? See where this goes? What do we take away next after guns? Anything.

The sad truth to this is there is NOTHING that can be done to prevent such a tragedy from happening again, no matter how much you, the news or the VT kids want it to prevent it. Ever heard of a SuperMax prison? Those inmates have ZERO rights, they are stripped searched daily, bunks turned over daily, locked down 23.5hrs a day. However people still manage to DIE in them, granted, not by guns, but now I have to eat my soup from a plastic spoon. You going to turn every school into a supermax prison and hope for the best? No, you are not. The people won't go for it. Instead of trying to regulate each and everything thing EVERYONE does it would be better to teach people how to spot troubled individuals. So many students have come out to say he was a loaner, didn't talk, etc. Maybe had someone reported this to the proper person (spend the money there) they could have talked to him and gotten him help.

Guns are not to blame for what happened Monday, the School Administration isn't to blame, the police are not to blame, no student is to blame, the parents are not to blame, the chains he used to lock the door isn't to blame, the only person to blame for what happened Monday is guy that pulled the trigger. The sooner people get over themselves and their personal agenda's and realize this the sooner real action can take place to ensure it doesn't happen again.

[HAULN-SS]

I agree with you, spotting the people ahead of time is really the only defense. The only problem with that is, unless someone actually makes a VERY direct threat, or actually does something... it might get reported, but if the person doesnt want help, we can't make them seek it. It's also kind of one of those things where freedom of speech ends and action begins. This guy had all kinds of morbid writings and shit out there, but he never had anything that was as direct as "I'm going to kill so and so - and anyone else i feel like..in 3 weeks" or anything, so there's no way people could have detained him. He was asked to seek help, but how often is that actually going to work? People usually dont think they have a problem. Are we going to start arresting everyone that has personality quirks? nope, that won't happen either. Also, this was clearly death by suicide directly, or suicide by the police. It's pretty hard to stop a guy like that. There's going to be help for some people, but for people like this guy, about the only thing that's going to stop them is a bullet.

[Kaan]

You cant make guns illegal. Maybe if we did this back in the early 1900s with prohibition, it would have eventually worked... other than it being unconstitutional.

There are far too many fire arms in the US to make them illegal now. This will create a huge black market for guns. And logically the predominate consumer of black market goods would use them for illegal activity. And yes even in England there is a HUGE blackmarket for guns. They have to proactively make the arrests... which we could do... with about 1 million dedicated police officer in a country our size witht he amount of fire arms that rest within our boarders.

In the tragedy that just happened in Blacksburg, both pistols had the serial numbers filed off. Signs they were black market fire arms. Even in the legal retail world, the two fire arms used were worth no more than $700.

If you tell someone like Chad or myself that we arent allowed to own our guns anymore, this only gives the criminals more power. There millions of modern guns, made with some of the best materials possible, and their life spans are basically indefinite.

Back in the 1900s our ability to machine, rifle, and use the best materials were so limited that 100 years later, those guns wouldnt be functioning anymore. Where as my Glock, will easily be working 100 years from now.

If more of the public would legally arm themselves and take the proper training, rampages would end much sooner. In Virginia a very limited percentage of the population exercises their right to conceal a weapon. There are plenty of people who own hand guns in this state. But the rules restricting where you can carry that fire arm keep people from even applying for the concealed weapons permit.

Virginia is an open carry state as well a conceal state. You just have to take a course and apply at the courthouse with proof that you passed the class to get your conceal permit.

You cant carry in an FDIC insured bank. You cant carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol (ei you can get fast food, but outback and places like that are out). you cant carry within 1000 feet of a public school. This is were universities fall. They get partial funding by the state so they fall under this rule. In northern va you can rarely travel legally with a fire arm, there are schools EVERYWHERE! For several years after i turned 21 i carried my fire arm everywhere i legally could. but the rules were so restrictive that i couldnt always hang out with friends without going home and locking up the gun first. i cant hang out at a buddies house in Arlington and then go grab food in DC... i cant even lock the gun up in my car in that city, its illegal to have one period!

I feel that if more people could exercise their right to carry a fire arm, open or concealed, it would deter acts like this. obviously, in primary schools, and even "freshman" classes... these students arent of age to own a fire arm... but the teacher is! Are you going to kick the door in of a class room and start firing if the teach possibly has a fire arm on him?

There are so many rules and regulations disarming the public and empowering the criminals that even i leave my gun at home. I dont want to face gun charges if i get pulled over for running a stop sign 1000ft near a school... or even worse when you have to lock the gun up in your car to run in and cash a check from work... and your car gets stolen or the gun is stolen. because no matter what, you are responsible for your fire arm, and i'd rather keep it on me than put it somewhere for a short time where it can be taken!

I spent alot of time training with the rockingham county police, state troopers, harrionburg city, and JMU PD. I can write up something, if there is enough positive response to it, to teach you how to deal with situations like this tactically. How to wedge a door right, where to place yourself in a room if a gunman is running around in your building, etc

[Sijray21]

In the tragedy that just happened in Blacksburg, both pistols had the serial numbers filed off. Signs they were black market fire arms.

i don't think that's this case - reports said the guns were bought by him (one last fall and one last friday). in the reports of the search warrant of his room they found a dremel case and a dremel. i think it can safely be assumed that he removed the serial numbers with the dremel.

EDIT: i agree with Kaan about the prohibition of guns causing a black market, etc.

i honestly believe that this guy didn't have much a criminal record and just simply went psycho. more emphasis should've been to provide a kind converstation and some willingness to get-to-know this individual and provide him some help that he may not have seeked. persistance would be key in a severe situation such as this one. it's pretty obvious that this individual had issues tracing back years and some help was provided, but often the help is dismissed and stereotypically not many people will be willing to lend out a helping hand to a person of this characteristic (unfortunate, but true). I personally know an individual in HS that said if it weren't for a few of his friends sophomore year he probably would've committed suicide. I think he just needed some friends to help him.

i think the gun-control policy is fine personally and it's still the person behind the gun that can yield the most dangerous results. Although i've never even fired a gun, i do plan on owning one later and i still want to go to the range. All with the proper education and safety knowledge that i can obtain of course.

[Kaan]

He didn't buy a Glock 19 (the 19 means 19 ROUNDS per clip) because he gets a sore finger from pushing the clip release button.

Chad i'm going to smack you. Glock 19 = compact 9mm, stock 10 round mags, can use the preban 15 round mags, and the Law enforcement (there are legal ones now) 33 round mags. All these mags can then be modded with a +2 extension.

wana know how i know? because its my handgun of choice. i have 10 round mags, 12 round mags, 15, 17, and 33s. I have yet to buy +2 extensions for my 33s. My Glock 19 is modified to fire a 15 rouns mag in less than 3.5 seconds. It can shoot underwater and still be deadly. It has 3lb trigger, and a trigger safety disengauge after the first round is fired. It was set up as the ultimate speed shooting (competition purpose) and self defense weapon. Small, light, holds alot of rounds, can fire over 20k rounds before cleaning, etc.

[white_2kgt]

In the tragedy that just happened in Blacksburg, both pistols had the serial numbers filed off. Signs they were black market fire arms. Even in the legal retail world, the two fire arms used were worth no more than $700.

I don't know where you heard that but he bought the guns at Roanoke Firearms for $571 along w/ 50 rounds,
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Submitting English papers to you teacher that depict mass killings and other 'morbid' things is a cry for help, had he been offered help, he just might have taken it rather than the guns.

[white_2kgt]

He didn't buy a Glock 19 (the 19 means 19 ROUNDS per clip) because he gets a sore finger from pushing the clip release button.

Chad i'm going to smack you. Glock 19 = compact 9mm, stock 10 round mags, can use the preban 15 round mags, and the Law enforcement (there are legal ones now) 33 round mags. All these mags can then be modded with a +2 extension.

Well, before I started looking at the .357 revolvers I was going to get a Glock 19 and I remember seeing a 19 round clip made just for them? No? Maybe it was a hybrid or something. I decided against the 9 b/c I wanted Christina to be able to take down a perp as well, and knowing her she'd get 1 shot off and freak, figure better have it be a .357 round w/ some stopping power than a 9mm.