.RJ Wrote:We found out last weekend that rollbars are not required for convertibles.... only recommended.
Kaan Wrote:yeah that was a kick in the balls. it had something to do with legalities and responcibility and all that crap...
Yup which is why for the past couple years I've ignored the calls about someone being above their rollbar or someone not having one. It's in the CCR that they "should" not are required. I advise them of the safety problems of not having them or being above them, and ultimately it's the driver and instructor's choice whether or not to sit in there. I've had several student's weekends ended by an instructor telling me they refused to sit in the car.
.RJ Wrote:We found out last weekend that rollbars are not required for convertibles.... only recommended. In nasa's slack-assed rules thats correct, but many tracks have rules about this that supercede the org's rules.
For example at VIR you not only must have a rollbar, but it must be aftermarket - no OE hoops (ie- S2k, Z4, etc).
I thought Summit had a similar rule that required rollbars, but accepted OE, but maybe not.
ummm i doubt its slack ass rules and more about stupid ass lawyers.
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Dragon Wrote:Feersty Wrote:Well most racecar convertibles have hardtops anyway. Uhh all racecar's are required to have a full race cage so the question of the rollbar is a moot point.
I fixed that for you Matt.
white_2kgt Wrote:Exactly. You CANNOT put a hardshell fixed back seat in a car w/o a rollbar and stay safe, there's no recliner to break and due to the high bolsters you can't 'duck' out of it, not to mention the 3pt belts won't really fit you snug like they are suppose to.
can someone 'splain this one more to me? I'd never heard of such an issue. Why would I want the recliner to break in a rollover? And at least some seats leave plenty of "duck" room, as long as they don't have like a wrap-around head area or very deep shoulder wing things (I'm sure they have a name). And at least in the case of mine, with the stock lower belt going through the holes where you'd put the harness through, they are very close to stock locations and seem like they'd tension very well.
Point me to an article?
And has anyone seen any real data on any of this? I want a HURT report for track cars. How are people really getting injured and where's the science to back up any of the crap we've said in here?
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a van is a good guy with a van
Recliner seats are designed in a rollover to recline back in order to have you laying flat and therefore hopefully not be crushed by the roof. That's how it was explained to me.
doesn't the roof have you hit you in the head or face first, hard enough to break the recliner back? OW?
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a van is a good guy with a van
Dragon Wrote:Recliner seats are designed in a rollover to recline back in order to have you laying flat and therefore hopefully not be crushed by the roof. That's how it was explained to me.
As someone who was in a rollover, in a regular reclining seat, with the car coming to rest on it's roof, I officially declare Bullshit*.
Not only did the seats not recline, but after unbuckling my seatbelt and falling to the ceiling (thus coming to my stunned realization I was upside down) I could not recline the seats in order to get to the back seat. (I had the brilliant idea of exiting the car through the trunk.
*Bullshit as applies to a 1993 Oldsmobile Achieva S coupe, 3.3L V6 auto trans
1987 Oldsmobile Cutlass 442
the seats are only part of the problem - the harness are the biggest offender, in the event of a rollover.
with a harness you are sitting bolt upright in your seat, and when the roof crushes in so does your neck. With a OE style 3-point belt you can be forced to the inside of the car, where your neck isnt put in a 20-ton press.
You dont wear a Hans because "in theory you might have a nasty offset front impact that kills you". Both of those types of events are real and they happen.
Fixed back seats with no rollbar and oe 3-point belts are a good comprimise I think. I think Scroth (sp?) makes some sort of nifty 4-point harness that holds you in place but still has the safety of the OE 3-point.
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
+1 for Rex
I witnessed a rollover a few weeks ago. If you want to be anal about it, I witnessed a car roll five times and comes to rest on it's roof. The driver seat was in it's full upright position when I looked to make sure that all the occupants were out. The car was an 02+ Subaru Forester.
The logic also doesn't make sense to me. As Chan pointed out, wouldn't the occupant of the seat have to make contact with the roof with a significant amount of force in order to urge the recliner into... reclining? I imagine a force like that would probably hurt a person. Is there a one-way mechanism inside some recliners that senses when the car is on it's lid and is supposed to free the piece in motion?
Also, why would you want the seat to recline, other than to keep the roof from crushing you? It seems to me that if the seat tilted backwards during an accidnet, and that accident were in progress, that if there was motion after the roof collapsed that the occupant would become a projectile since the belts would be slack without a board (the seat) to hold them in place?
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.RJ Wrote:Fixed back seats with no rollbar and oe 3-point belts are a good comprimise I think.
That's kinda what I was lead to believe from previous discussions here. At least wouldn't do any harm, and might actually help in a side impact kind of situation. Made sense to me!
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a van is a good guy with a van
BLINGMW Wrote:.RJ Wrote:Fixed back seats with no rollbar and oe 3-point belts are a good comprimise I think.
That's kinda what I was lead to believe from previous discussions here. At least wouldn't do any harm, and might actually help in a side impact kind of situation. Made sense to me!
Put youself in a fixed back racing seat with shoulder support, now fully tension the belt and lock it, like what would happen in an impact, see if you can 'duck out'. Now try it in a stock seat, which was easier?
The stock seats in my mustang were designed that with enough force (enough that you didn't encounter it daily, but not enough that you would be harmed) that if the force exerted during a crash would cause the seat to recline back a few notches. I know wtih my EVO2's that the stock 3pt belts DID NOT get tight enough on my waist to hold me in place, nothing like the 5pt lap belt does. When I drove on the street I always hooked the 5pt lap belt and used the 3pt belt over it.
my take on this is that in HPDE1 or 2, the likeliness of a severe accident is small. its happened, and i've seen it happen, but any instructor worth a damn will be able to keep his or her student in check and move him along in a slow manner to understand the dynamics of the car at speed. now that being said, accidents do happen and if the unfortunate should occur, i think a lot of safety considerations have gone into the R&D of stock setups by car manufacturers to keep people safe. and i know there's a difference between getting t-boned at 30 mph at a stop light and hitting a tirewall at 90 mph, but either way, its not gonna be pretty.
rollbars - if a convertible does not have a roll bar, i would be very hesitant to get in. if a regular car doesnt, it would only scare me if the driver didnt know what the hell they were doing.
harnesses - i'm not putting it on if there's no roll bar. if there is, then i'm using them. for the street, i never use harnesses. i still have my 3pt belts properly mounted in both driver and passenger seat
racing seats - i dont think having or not having a racing seat is a problem for lower hpde groups. i had just my sparco pro2k with no harnesses and no roll bar in my integra and i feel like it was as safe as a stock seat. the force required to break away a reclinable seat will probably be as much, if not more than the force required to break a fixed back fiberglass seat when hitting it from the top. but a fixed back seat like my sparco has much more side support for hpde that half my energy on track wasnt used to support myself from lateral g-forces around turns thus making concentrating on driving easier. as far as comfort, although the pro2k is small on a lot of people, i find it very comfortable. the only thing it sucks for is trying to get your wallet out of your back pocket or something out of your side pockets. i drove from cville to atlanta in the sparco and it was alright except that 8 hour drive made my nuts sweaty and uncomfortable, but by the time that happened, i'd pull over for gas or a quick bite to eat.
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Maengelito Wrote:i drove from cville to atlanta in the sparco and it was alright except that 8 hour drive made my nuts sweaty and uncomfortable, but by the time that happened, i'd pull over for gas or a quick bite to eat.
WTF? LOL
If you're in an accident that flipped the car, you can't "duck out" anyways. At that point, I would think you're along for the ride.
Two feet.
Andy Wrote:If you're in an accident that flipped the car, you can't "duck out" anyways. At that point, I would think you're along for the ride.
There's a difference in flopping around in your seat and being held dead upright. When the zone starts to crumple you will move in a stock setup. When I was upside down, I had nowhere to go, I was at the mercy of the cage to keep the roof off me, and it did.
white_2kgt Wrote:Andy Wrote:If you're in an accident that flipped the car, you can't "duck out" anyways. At that point, I would think you're along for the ride.
There's a difference in flopping around in your seat and being held dead upright. When the zone starts to crumple you will move in a stock setup. When I was upside down, I had nowhere to go, I was at the mercy of the cage to keep the roof off me, and it did.
But if you're upside down, gravity is pulling you towards the roof and the more slack there is, the farther you move towards the roof. No?
Two feet.
we are talking about a roof cave-in people.
Captain obvious says no kidding that if the roof structure stays intact a fixed seat doesnt matter
I am leaning towards going with a roll bar, stock seats, 6 point harness, and seat braces. Not 100% sure, still doing more research. The stock SE-R seats hold you in decently for stock seats. Only picture I could find of them: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/1/web/709000-709999/709115_71.jpg">http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_im ... 115_71.jpg</a><!-- m -->
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I'm a big proponent of safety, as my bimmer shows for an HPDE 2 car. I did 4 events with a stock, slow honda and felt fairly safe. Now, I never had an off or spin, so it was basically driving "spirited" and learning as I went. I don't think you can tell someone to "give it a few events with your stock setup" and feel 100% safe about it. Even though HPDE 1 and 2 are somewhat safe, you can't always prevent an accident.
I took 7 months building my BMW to a point I felt it was pretty safe for an HPDE car (weld in roll bar, halo seat, 6pt harnesses). I had reached a point where I felt I was pushing the car enough to require additional safety measures.
If you can dedicate a car and afford to do all 3 items, I say take the time and do it. If not, keep it stock- cars are designed to take an impact, and your risk is fairly low if you keep a your head about you. If you do all 3 and still daily drive the car, keep your stock seat belts mounted. I left mine in for when I drive to the track.
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mpg9999 Wrote:I am leaning towards going with a roll bar, stock seats, 6 point harness, and seat braces. Not 100% sure, still doing more research. The stock SE-R seats hold you in decently for stock seats. Only picture I could find of them: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/1/web/709000-709999/709115_71.jpg">http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_im ... 115_71.jpg</a><!-- m -->
A seat back brace will punch a hole in those seats given enough force, that is a bad idea. Either get hard shell seats or forget it all.
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