HPDE Safety

[mpg9999]

Copy/pasted from my post on the sr20forum. I talked to a few of you guys at the track about this already:

This past weekend I got the oppurtunity to go out on track in a few different cars, including a VE powered NX2000. It really got me thinking about safety. All the cars I went out in had roll bars, 5 point harnesses, and racing seats. I have always planned on adding a rollbar, but I think I may move that up as my next modification. The two bolt in roll bars for the b13 are the autopower and kirk. Does the interior in the back have to be removed to have the roll bar installed? From the autopower website it sounded like they had two versions. Both the kirk and the autopower are 1.75 x .120 DOM.

I'd also like to get at least a 5 point harness, preferably 6 point. My problem is that this is a street car and a daily driver. I need my stock seat belts to work, because theres no way I'm putting on a harness everytime I drive. I need at least the passenger seat to remain reclinable so I can have access to the back seat. This presents a problem though. I'm not sure how happy my instructor will be if I have a fixed back racing seat and he is in a stock seat. Are there any certifications for reclinable seats, similar to fia? I also really don't want to be spending a thousand bucks just on seats. I've looked into the Sparco Evo and Recaro pole position, both go for around 600 bucks new. I also need whatever seats I buy to be comfertable enough on the street for long drives. I frequently drive 300+ miles in a day.

Next question is on harnesses. Any suggestions? All I really know is that I want something thats at least 5 points.



I was also just thinking, what about just using the stock seat on the passengers side with a 5 point harness and a seat brace ( like this <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.paragon-products.com/product_p/bk_r9019.htm">http://www.paragon-products.com/product_p/bk_r9019.htm</a><!-- m --> ). Would that satisfy most instructors?

[white_2kgt]

There are limited cars have stock seats that can safely use a harness. I would bet your Sentra isn't one of them, so don't try it, please, even w/ a brace. What I would suggest is getting you some racing seats and just swap back and forth for the track and street. It's just a few bolts a an hour or so of time.

Also, don't think you can do this in stages, and don't expect to still use your back seat even with a 4pt roll bar, b/c you can't. The rear passengers will NOT be safe. The best way to do this type of upgrade is all at once.

Here is an article on picking a harness,
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://corner-carvers.com/wiki/index.php?Notes%20on%20Race%20Car%20Harnesses">http://corner-carvers.com/wiki/index.ph ... 0Harnesses</a><!-- m -->

and here is one on how to mount them,
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.schroth.com/installation-instructions/en/index.html">http://www.schroth.com/installation-ins ... index.html</a><!-- m -->

[BLINGMW]

this is COMPLETELY my own oppinion. But I think rollbars are for race cars or dedicated track cars. It seems like overkill to me assuming we're not talking about some really fast car. I do like the idea of race seats, because they give you some lateral support. I can't totally justify my oppinion, but here's a half assed attempt:

Ways you might crash on track during HPDE:

Spin and hit a wall or tree backwards. Rollbar help? No. Seats? No.

Spin and hit a wall sideways. Rollbar help? No. Seats? Yes.

Spin and hit corner of pit entry wall or tree directly in driver door? You're probably dead either way.

Rollover. Rollbar help? Yes. Seats? Yes. Likelyhood of roof totally crushing on single rollover in a well built car? Low. Don't post the pic of the BMW with crushed roof, I realize it CAN happen.

Hit a wall head on. Rollbar help? No. Seats? No. Harness would help a lot here, and that comes with the rollbar though. But if it's this accident you're scared of, you're still going to break your neck without a HANS.

Go flying into forest. Rollbar help? Not really. Seats? Yes. Hope you don't get speared by a tree.

Car to car contact is very rare, and when it does happen, both cars are likely to be moving somewhat in the same direction, so chance of injury is low, and car would maintain its shape. Rollbar help? No. Seats? Yes.

So, the dreaded rollover is the only one it helps you with. I've never seen an HPDE car rollover. They usually hit things while still on their wheels. Honestly, I think the chance of hitting a wall head on (lost your brakes) is higher than a rollover, so I'd get the HANS before I got a bar! And who does that? Probably the best thing you can do towards your track safety is to track a fairly slow car.

I don't think any of that helped anyone. A very poor "arguement". Sorry!

[ScottyB]

So, the dreaded rollover is the only one it helps you with. I've never seen an HPDE car rollover. They usually hit things while still on their wheels. Honestly, I think the chance of hitting a wall head on (lost your brakes) is higher than a rollover, so I'd get the HANS before I got a bar! And who does that? Probably the best thing you can do towards your track safety is to track a fairly slow car.

i know Chad has a video of a camaro oversteering into the inside wall on turn 9 at summit. that's the only instance i've ever seen of a heavy, heavy frontal impact/rollover in a street type car, and it had alot of power. in the video you can see where the instructor's head hit the windown...HANS would have helped in that situation

[Andy]

An Evo lost it on T10 at SP Main, flipped, rotated and landed on all four wheels. Both instructor and student were fine though. But I agree with you Chan, HPDE doesn't necessitate rollbars/harnesses/seats until you get fast or your wallet gets big. One or the other.

But I do agree with Chad, you can't add safety stuff in pieces unless you do seats, then later add rollbar w/harnesses at the same time.

But honestly, in HPDE 1 and 2, it's really unlikely that you will *need* this stuff for safety. However, being strapped in really helps with your control/feel of the car.

[Kaan]

You should NOT have fixed back race seats in your car without a roll bar. if you do end up on your lid they are not designed to "break" in the "right" way and you will have your skull mated to the roof of your car.

the propper progression should be... and it can be done...

Roll bar
Seats
Harnesses

a roll bar alone gives minimal risk with "stock" seats and belts... it helps in roll overs. Add seats, you have a roll bar in already... your head will not mate up with the roof in a roll over. Add belts to keep you FIRMLY in the seat.

and all the VA residence should know, if you are driving a car to the track... keep your stock three pointers on while on the street... the police in this state dont like people using harnesses on the road. they have to collect revenue some how!

[white_2kgt]

You should NOT have fixed back race seats in your car without a roll bar. if you do end up on your lid they are not designed to "break" in the "right" way and you will have your skull mated to the roof of your car.

Exactly. You CANNOT put a hardshell fixed back seat in a car w/o a rollbar and stay safe, there's no recliner to break and due to the high bolsters you can't 'duck' out of it, not to mention the 3pt belts won't really fit you snug like they are suppose to.

the propper progression should be... and it can be done...

Roll bar
Seats
Harnesses

No. There is no 'progression'. They must ALL be done at once. Here's why,

Roll Bar only, your stock seats/belts won't contain you enough in the event on a rollover and you will end up hitting the bars and crushing your skull. The stock recliner seats also could lay back, causing it to fold into the harnessbar breaking your back.

Seats+Rollbar, The stock 3pt belts CANNOT hold you in place in the event of an accident and prevent you from sliding out of the seat, due to the higher than stock sides the belts can't tighten up around your waist and in the event of a rollover the stock belts won't keep your head and neck away from the main hoop.

Seats+Rollbar+Betls, Now you are contained, you won't slide out of the seat and you won't hit your head on the main hoop when you roll, nor will the roof crush you when you land on it.

For HPDE1+2, I HIGHLY suggest sticking with the stock equiptment if you are not prepared to do all 3 at once. The stock stuff was designed to protect you as a system, the same way the Rollbar/Seats/Harnesses is, when you start to change one part of the system, you make another part ineffective. I can't tell you how many cars I saw on grid in HPDE3/4 this weekend with only a harnees and no rollbar/seat or rollbar only, I just shook my head and pointed at the track.

[Kaan]

Roll Bar only, your stock seats/belts won't contain you enough in the event on a rollover and you will end up hitting the bars and crushing your skull. The stock recliner seats also could lay back, causing it to fold into the harnessbar breaking your back.

ok i cant argue the "folding back" thing... but its highly unlikely... but the hitting your head on the ROLL BAR is unlikely :-P if it were a "cage" with a hallo... thats a different story.

[Andy]

Roll Bar only, your stock seats/belts won't contain you enough in the event on a rollover and you will end up hitting the bars and crushing your skull. The stock recliner seats also could lay back, causing it to fold into the harnessbar breaking your back.

ok i cant argue the "folding back" thing... but its highly unlikely... but the hitting your head on the ROLL BAR is unlikely :-P if it were a "cage" with a hallo... thats a different story.

The folding back has happened on the street. Cars have had recalls issued because stress tests showed seats lacking. I think Tempo/Topaz had that problem.

Hey Kaan, talk to your boy Unk, he said that ideally, you should get it all at once, but if we had to, get seats, then rollbar with harnesses.

In the end though, I gotta go with Chad's safe but expensive recommendation. Get it all at once.

[Kaan]

Unk can stay in the class room... and he was probably talking about what would be the "best" for aiding in learning to drive... NOT the safest.

[white_2kgt]

... but its highly unlikely...

So is flipping a car in HPDE, but both have happened. I'm just trying to show people the safest route, something YOU should be doing as well considering your role in NASA and all . I would make an AWFUL tech inspector, I wouldn't pass 1/2 those cars that roll in that shead.

[Kaan]

well thats the thing... by the rules i dont see the cars you THINK are going in the tech shed... i only see race cars and HPDE 3 cars... and the only people i have issues with are the HPDE 3 guys... sometimes race cars... if there is an issue... they have to fix it before i'll let them out... i've hunted people down... trust me i dont let too much slide... and they all get lectures just like this thread when the pull up in stock seats, no roll bar, and harnesses tied into the rear seat belts. remember i enjoy my roll as an asshole!

[white_2kgt]

well thats the thing... by the rules i dont see the cars you THINK are going in the tech shed... i only see race cars and HPDE 3 cars... and the only people i have issues with are the HPDE 3 guys... sometimes race cars... if there is an issue... they have to fix it before i'll let them out... i've hunted people down... trust me i dont let too much slide... and they all get lectures just like this thread when the pull up in stock seats, no roll bar, and harnesses tied into the rear seat belts. remember i enjoy my roll as an asshole!

True, HPDE4 you don't see, and I can't remember a specific car right now in 3 that caught my attention. Most of the race cars looked ok, a few had the sub strap mounted wrong though, but that's not in the CCR, should be, but isn't.

[.RJ]

We found out last weekend that rollbars are not required for convertibles.... only recommended.

[Kaan]

yeah that was a kick in the balls. it had something to do with legalities and responcibility and all that crap...

[Feersty]

We found out last weekend that rollbars are not required for convertibles.... only recommended.

HPDE or racecars?

[.RJ]

HPDE or racecars?

You're kidding, right?

[Feersty]

Well most racecar convertibles have hardtops anyway.

[.RJ]

Well most racecar convertibles have hardtops anyway.

Most, not all.

You missed the point...

[Dragon]

Well most racecar convertibles have hardtops anyway.

Uhh all racecar convertibles are required to have a full race cage so the question of the rollbar is a moot point.