Toyota Power

[.RJ]

Now that Takeo Fukui (a former director of HRC) is at the helm I think we'll start to see Honda turn around though.

I want a CTR for daily driver

[Evan]

Now that Takeo Fukui (a former director of HRC) is at the helm I think we'll start to see Honda turn around though.

Well they have a lot of catching up to do.
Now you have to bring 250hp+ to the table or not bother showing up.
And with so many RWD and AWD choices, consumers arent content with front heavy FF econo-derivatives anymore either.

Honda picked a real bad time to stop developing the performance segment. If they ever get back into it, they will find themselves sorely behind. And that little H badge on the hood will only get them so far.

[Feersty]

Dude if Honda came out with a new R, everyone would buy it.

[KPWSerpiente]

Dude if Honda came out with a new R, everyone would buy it

There is not a single Honda automobile on the market (as of now, the last 50 years, or coming out soon) I would want to own, from a performance standpoint.

NSX - Congrats. For that money I could buy a Viper and be making some real power without sacrficing looks, the bling factor, or too much handling.

S2000 - Whoopee! A Honda Sports car. Amazing! And to actually get it to make some serious power all I have to do is tear apart the engine and build it back up, maybe get a little FI action going on. This is a very nice car to drive...not going to outperform much though.

Any Civic/Accord/Prelude/Integra/RSX. Nothing says performance like N/A, I4 or FF.

Please note I am talking about strictly being a performance platform. You can make any car competitive, but a naturally aspirated 4 cylinder front wheel drive car is at a huge disadvantage against the cars being put out by other manufacturers. The real reason Honda is popular is because most of the cars it makes are cost effective, (cheap to buy, cheap to insure, cheap to operate).

-T

[DierwulfBL]

yea, and seeing how most of us are poor college kids and unless were lucky enough to be given a car worth more than 400 dollars have to steer towards cost efficient.......and fuel efficient........i accidentally came across a good job to do all the stuff to my car, i wish i had just saved it and put it into a DSM or something turbo though.........gt4 if i could find one hehe

[ScottyB]

Dude if Honda came out with a new R, everyone would buy it

There is not a single Honda automobile on the market (as of now, the last 50 years, or coming out soon) I would want to own, from a performance standpoint.

NSX - Congrats. For that money I could buy a Viper and be making some real power without sacrficing looks, the bling factor, or too much handling.

S2000 - Whoopee! A Honda Sports car. Amazing! And to actually get it to make some serious power all I have to do is tear apart the engine and build it back up, maybe get a little FI action going on. This is a very nice car to drive...not going to outperform much though.

Any Civic/Accord/Prelude/Integra/RSX. Nothing says performance like N/A, I4 or FF.

Please note I am talking about strictly being a performance platform. You can make any car competitive, but a naturally aspirated 4 cylinder front wheel drive car is at a huge disadvantage against the cars being put out by other manufacturers. The real reason Honda is popular is because most of the cars it makes are cost effective, (cheap to buy, cheap to insure, cheap to operate).

-T

i know you're a pretty drag-oriented guy, so in that case of course FF and low torque aren't the ideal setup. but everywhere else, hondas/acuras are undeniably good, especially with proper modifications on some models like the low-buck civic.

at VIR last weekend i saw many a civic and integra hang with some very quick cars. virtues like light weight, excellent suspension, and good brakes (low weight and the right pads) help these often outpowered cars hang with some pretty good comptetion.

or, just look at the speedvision world challenge a few years back. the integras ran away from everything for 2 seasons i believe. that included rear wheel drivers, and cars with far more displacement.

[Dave]

i like hondas myself. Inexpensive, reliable, gas efficient, lightweight, great handling, easy to work on, easy to mod, tons of aftermarket, decent looks, fun to drive, and cheap insurance. These are all good qualities if you ask me. Sure, they are underpowered, but that is slowly being remedied, and tons of power isn't necessary to power around a car that is lighter than the rest of its class.
I'd love to say my supra had all of these characteristics, but it doesn't. It drinks gas, isn't particularly easy to work on, limited aftermarket (unless its a TT), and eats up insurance money. Oh yeah, expensive as hell. (for the record, nobody gave me anything for my car. Purchased by myself alone with no help from either of the parents, so the key to having a nice car may just be learning how to handle your money and budget yourself) If I didn't have the soops, I'd bet money that I'd have a Honda. In fact I'm prolly gonna replace one with a Honda... .

[G.Irish]

Dude if Honda came out with a new R, everyone would buy it

There is not a single Honda automobile on the market (as of now, the last 50 years, or coming out soon) I would want to own, from a performance standpoint.

NSX - Congrats. For that money I could buy a Viper and be making some real power without sacrficing looks, the bling factor, or too much handling.

S2000 - Whoopee! A Honda Sports car. Amazing! And to actually get it to make some serious power all I have to do is tear apart the engine and build it back up, maybe get a little FI action going on. This is a very nice car to drive...not going to outperform much though.

Any Civic/Accord/Prelude/Integra/RSX. Nothing says performance like N/A, I4 or FF.

Please note I am talking about strictly being a performance platform. You can make any car competitive, but a naturally aspirated 4 cylinder front wheel drive car is at a huge disadvantage against the cars being put out by other manufacturers. The real reason Honda is popular is because most of the cars it makes are cost effective, (cheap to buy, cheap to insure, cheap to operate).

-T

It depends on how you define performance. If you are talking about drag racing then yes none of the Hondas are good for that. If you are talking about on a road course then its a different story. The Type-R won the World Challenge Touring championship 6 years in a row, the NSX won JGTC twice, World Challenge GT and Le Mans GT2 once. There are plenty of other series around the world I could quote but you get the point. Hondas are not made for drag racing the same way BMW's are not made for drag racing.

As for the NSX, it is horribly long in tooth and really it is only out of love that Honda still makes it. When it was in its first 5 years of life it was among the world's best sportscars. It could go toe to toe with the likes of the Ferrari 348 and Porsche 911 yet still be as reliable as any other Honda. But more than the raw performance the NSX was more about balance. This is why Gordon Murray used the NSX as one of the design models for the F1 rather than the crude and unrefined Viper.
So yeah, now the NSX is outgunned by the Viper, Z06, 996 Turbo, 360, and others, and really there's no excuse for that. However, we'll see how far Honda is willing to go with the next generation which should bow sometime in 05 or so.

So yeah you can buy a Viper for the bling factor and looks and that's your choice. But when it comes down to it few will say it was/is among the world's finest because it is a rather brutish muscle car with little attention to detail. The Viper is like using a sledge hammer to push in a thumbtack. However, if monster power is your goal then there is no better starting point than a Viper. For my money I can appreciate the Viper and I would love the opportunity to take a Comp Coupe out on track. But if it comes to a street car I'd rather not have my legs burned by improperly route side pipes or deal every day or worry about hitting something while looking over my 8 foot phallic hood.

With the S2000, there is no other roadster on the market until you get to the Boxster S that can run with it on a road course, hands down. On the strip maybe the Z4 3.0 could keep up. But really, a roadster is naturally not an all out performance car because not having a top is a huge structural compromise. To overcome this compromise the car has to be smaller (like the Miata), heavier to make the car more rigid (like the S2000), or be light and not rigid (like the British roadsters of yore). When put against other performance vehicles for the money the S2000 does well against stuff like the 350Z, RX-8, and Mustang but pretty much everything in that price range has to bow down to the Evo and STi. Does it mean the S2000 sucks? Of course not.

Its totally fine if your performance car preferences are different than mine, great! Diversity is a cool thing. But don't be another Honda basher just because some people like Hondas and you do not. Just because you have a relatively narrow view of what a performance is doesn't mean you must disparage what is outside of that view.

[Mike]

note to self: never get in an argument with gerald.

[Dave]

note to self: never get in an argument with gerald.

True that. My man has got every Honda win catalogged in his head to refute any naysayers about Honda being an awesome company. Its amazing he was able to leave enough space open in there to learn enough to graduate . Best part is that his statements are backed by evidence and they actually make sense, as opposed to a lot of the crap I have seen on forums outside of MM.

[Kaan]

well i dont wana argue... but can they at least get rid of the slow bus Si?

[KPWSerpiente]

Alright. We'll do this in reverse.

Its totally fine if your performance car preferences are different than mine, great! Diversity is a cool thing. But don't be another Honda basher just because some people like Hondas and you do not. Just because you have a relatively narrow view of what a performance is doesn't mean you must disparage what is outside of that view

Yes our preferences are different. But, at no point did I bash Honda, or say it was a bad company making a poor product. On the contrary, they put out a wide range of good cars that many people choose to own. But not for performance reasons!

My entire point, is that from a strictly performance (ANY KIND, drag, autox, rally, road, or ) point of view, any automobile made by Honda is not at the top of the list.

I'm glad we all agree the S2000 is a nice car. Looks good, rides well, and makes good power for such a small engine. But it does this by revving high and is therefore difficult to make more powerful without tearing apart the engine. When they said Johny Tran had 100 grand under the hood of his Fast and Furious S2000.....I believed them!
So we won't drag race it. So how about Rallying, autoxing, or roadracing?
For the price, and you already mentioned this, you can own an Evo8 or STi. These cars will out accelerate, out brake, out skidpad, out everything the S2000 for the reasons you already mentioned. They'll also carry more people...so we won't put the S2000 at the top of our list for any kind of these kinds of racing.

Ahh, the NSX. Yes it is time for Honda to step it up in that department. We won't even pretend it is a drag racing car.
So what about the rest? Like I brought up, for the money you could own a Viper. But you have problems with power and think comfort is more important than performance, so we'll forget about it. I'm gald you mentioned the Z06. Way less cost than an NSX, way more performance. We both agree the NSX needs to be replaced or revamped, and until then it won't be a first choice.

Hopefully you've stuck with me. These two top of the line street cars built by Honda are outperformed by cars from other makes that cost the same, or much less.

So what do we talk about now? Honda's wins in the world of motorsports? Impressive yes. Relevent to my point that Honda does not currently make a performance car that I would want to buy? NO!

List all of the trophies you want. It does not change the fact that they don't make a performance car you can buy, and then take to the track (or off road) and outperform cars that cost the same or less.

Keep this going, someone prove me wrong.

-T

[Mike]

Keep this going, someone prove me wrong.
-T

You'll find that pretty much everyone here will agree. For the 30k you could drop on an S2000 you could go a lot faster, but you lose some of the refinement of the S2K, you can't deny it'd be a pretty kickass car for an older guy that just wants to drop the top and cruise. For the 70k (or whatever) that an NSX costs you could again go much faster, but again you lose some of the refinement perhaps, something some people care about (not us).

[.RJ]

that from a strictly performance (ANY KIND, drag, autox, rally, road, or ) point

And this is precisely why this is a fallacy, a straw man argument.

To say that Hondas are not at the top of the list in *any* type of performance is just laughable.

[G.Irish]

Alright. We'll do this in reverse.

My entire point, is that from a strictly performance (ANY KIND, drag, autox, rally, road, or ) point of view, any automobile made by Honda is not at the top of the list.

I'm glad we all agree the S2000 is a nice car. Looks good, rides well, and makes good power for such a small engine. But it does this by revving high and is therefore difficult to make more powerful without tearing apart the engine. When they said Johny Tran had 100 grand under the hood of his Fast and Furious S2000.....I believed them!
So we won't drag race it. So how about Rallying, autoxing, or roadracing?
For the price, and you already mentioned this, you can own an Evo8 or STi. These cars will out accelerate, out brake, out skidpad, out everything the S2000 for the reasons you already mentioned. They'll also carry more people...so we won't put the S2000 at the top of our list for any kind of these kinds of racing.

Ahh, the NSX. Yes it is time for Honda to step it up in that department. We won't even pretend it is a drag racing car.
So what about the rest? Like I brought up, for the money you could own a Viper. But you have problems with power and think comfort is more important than performance, so we'll forget about it. I'm gald you mentioned the Z06. Way less cost than an NSX, way more performance. We both agree the NSX needs to be replaced or revamped, and until then it won't be a first choice.

Hopefully you've stuck with me. These two top of the line street cars built by Honda are outperformed by cars from other makes that cost the same, or much less.

So what do we talk about now? Honda's wins in the world of motorsports? Impressive yes. Relevent to my point that Honda does not currently make a performance car that I would want to buy? NO!

List all of the trophies you want. It does not change the fact that they don't make a performance car you can buy, and then take to the track (or off road) and outperform cars that cost the same or less.

Keep this going, someone prove me wrong.

-T

If you're talking about autocrossing again, Honda has wins there too. Look at the results for the last few years and the Type-R has dominated G-Stock/B-Stock and the S2000 has taken over B-Stock. In STS the lowly 88-91 Si has taken the crown from the Subaru 2.5RS.

Out on track the only cars for the same money or less that are going to beat the S2000 are the Evo, STi, and maybe the Z track model, depending on the course configuration. Compared against other roadsters its a wash.

Rallying? Well there are only two companies that make rally-esque cars in the United States can you guess what they are? No question there.

With the Viper I have no problems with power, but if you're going to spend big money on a supercar it should be designed properly. I don't want to have to contort my foot in ungodly ways to heel toe, I don't want to have problems figuring out where the front of the car is, and I don't want to get burned while inside the car. I prefer a car that is designed as a total experience rather than a huge honking truck engine with something built around it as an afterthought. The point I was trying to make is that for me a sports car should have the right balance of elements to make it an enjoyable driving experience. Now don't get me wrong, if we're talking new cars I would buy a Viper before I bought an NSX. Used I would buy an early NSX over a first gen Viper.

Really right now there is nothing that matches the prodigious performance of the the STi and Evo for the price. No disputing that. But saying there is nothing Honda makes that can outperform cars that cost the same or less is out and out false.

And if you have ever gone out to the track you'd realize that those tenths of a second one car has over another on paper make little difference at an open track event because of the differences in driver skill. I've rolled Vettes, M3's, Camaros, and several other cars that are faster on paper because they had lesser drivers. When you step up the pace in groups 3 and 4 you're pretty much not going to catch anything faster but even then in some sections of the track I can keep up with or gain on faster cars. So what's the point? Drive what you like. Drive whatever car suits your needs best and gives you the best driving experience. If Hondas don't float your boat, fine. Buy an Evo, buy a Mustang, buy an Elise. Thats what choice is for.

[Team]

well i dont wana argue... but can they at least get rid of the slow bus Si?

Now thats was like poking a dull knife in my back... but to be honest I do regret buying the ep3 everyday...

[G.Irish]

well i dont wana argue... but can they at least get rid of the slow bus Si?

Now thats was like poking a dull knife in my back... but to be honest I do regret buying the ep3 everyday...

Well Honda is pulling the plug on EP3 production in March...

Adam you could always slap a K24 in there.

[Team]

Well Honda is pulling the plug on EP3 production in March...

Well Adam you could always slap a K24 in there.

I just got word of the news and figured it was coming soon... and that k24 does sound nice, but I believe money from my ep to another vehicle would be much more beneficial

[G.Irish]

Well Honda is pulling the plug on EP3 production in March...

Well Adam you could always slap a K24 in there.

I just got word of the news and figured it was coming soon... and that k24 does sound nice, but I believe money from my ep to another vehicle would be much more beneficial

Probably right. What would get if you sold it?

[KPWSerpiente]

To say that Hondas are not at the top of the list in *any* type of performance is just laughable.

Alright, you keep laughing without bringing up anything to prove otherwise. I'll sit here and not laugh? You really shouldn't have even posted on this because you have nothing to say.

Gerald,

I think you are missing what I am saying -> I tried to lay it out easy.

Honda does not currently make a performance car that I would want to buy?

Now why is that?

My entire point, is that from a strictly performance (ANY KIND, drag, autox, rally, road, or ) point of view, any automobile made by Honda is not at the top of the list.

Now I see that I missworded it here..whereas up top I got it right.
I'm talking about CURRENT production models.

If the S2000 can be outperformed by the Evo and the STi in every category (correct?), and they cost the same, then it is not at the top of the list and that is only one reason why I would want an Evolution 8 over it.

If the current NSX (because yes the first several NSX production years kicked complete ass) which costs a fortune, can be outperformed by half a dozen other vehicles, that cost the same or less, it is not at the top of the list. I could buy almost two z06's instead of one NSX.

But saying there is nothing Honda makes that can outperform cars that cost the same or less is out and out false

You'll have to point out to me where I said they couldn't outperform cars.
I simply stated they couldn't outperform ALL cars, and therefore are not the elite some people try to make them out to be.

If you're talking about autocrossing again, Honda has wins there too. Look at the results for the last few years and the Type-R has dominated G-Stock/B-Stock and the S2000 has taken over B-Stock. In STS the lowly 88-91 Si has taken the crown from the Subaru 2.5RS.

You are talking about older production years. I'm sure there isn't a whole lot that can touch the ITR on a road course, for the price you can pick one up for. The S2000 is lucky it doesn't compete against any a couple AWD turbo cars I'm thinking of. I'm sure you can guess which.

But I'm not concerning myself with anything but the here and now.
What is Honda making now? Nothing to compete with the Evo and STi.
I'm sorry, but the k20a is not going to cut it.

You guys need to understand, I'm not saying Honda doesn't win. I'm not saying they make bad cars, or made them, or will make them.
I'm not saying I wouldn't roll in a few of them.
When it comes to performance, there are better alternatives from other manufacturers. That is what I'm saying.

-T