Toyota Power

[DierwulfBL]

can a 1.5L honda do this?

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mmmmm toyota ::drools::

[Ryan T]

can a 1.5L honda do this?

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mmmmm toyota ::drools::

No, but a 1.8L honda can. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.hondata.com/pressreleaseprogress204.html">http://www.hondata.com/pressreleaseprogress204.html</a><!-- m -->

[G.Irish]

can a 1.5L honda do this?

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mmmmm toyota ::drools::

While that is a very impressive feat of engineering that by no means asserts any engineering superiority over Honda engines. And just FYI the answer is yes:



In the turbocharged F1 era the 1.5L V6's were making well over 1000 hp, some estimate that it was as high as 1500 hp. During that time Honda won 6 consecutive constructor's F1 championships as well as 5 driver's championships.

edit: mixed up engine specs

[DierwulfBL]

i suppose then that the stock 3sgte modded to 900whp in the turbo mr2 would be the response to that, just tryin to start some topics, i love hondas, just that toyotas are under rated, tryin to open everyones eyes to the wonderful world of toyota.......and it is a wonderful world.

[DierwulfBL]

While that is a very impressive feat of engineering that by no means asserts any engineering superiority over Honda engines. And just FYI the answer is yes:



In the turbocharged F1 era the 1.5L V10's were making well over 1000 hp, some estimate that it was as high as 1500 hp. During that time Honda won 6 consecutive constructor's F1 championships as well as 5 driver's championships.

yea that definitely wasnt a stock bodied honda was it? ROFL i wasnt talking race cars here, im talking a stock bodied production car with a production engine :-\

[DierwulfBL]

i guess when honda makes a I4, 20 valve, 4 individual throttle body engine coming from the factory then i will bow down and say they have engineering supremacy, but im just not seein it. Soon maybe? time will tell i suppose.

[.RJ]

i guess when honda makes a I4, 20 valve, 4 individual throttle body engine coming from the factory then i will bow down and say they have engineering supremacy, but im just not seein it.

Read the article you linked. What ended up in the car is a far cry from what the engine was when it left the factory. Lightened, Destroked, Turbocharged, Motec... c'mon.

While we're off topic...

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And there was an S2000 that ran 155mph - stock body, stock motor. The toyota couldnt have done that.

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[Mike]

These same "Supreme Toyota Engineers" also made the Celica GT-S with retarded gear ratios... go figure :?

[G.Irish]

i guess when honda makes a I4, 20 valve, 4 individual throttle body engine coming from the factory then i will bow down and say they have engineering supremacy, but im just not seein it. Soon maybe? time will tell i suppose.

ITB'S = engineering supremacy? All while making 165 horsepower out of 1.6L? Um, no.

Don't get me wrong, the 3S-GTE, 4A-GE, and 2JZ-GTE are all fabolous engines that can produce a lot of power. But to suggest that Toyota engineering is superior is a fallacy. Equal? Maybe.

In motorsports Toyota loses big on the grand total vis a vis with Honda. 6 F1 championships to zero. 7 CART championships for Honda to 1 for Toyota. Toyota doesn't race bikes so that doesn't count but even then Honda dominates that too. Toyota did win some WRC championships before being banned for cheating *cough* and they lead Honda in JGTC 3-2. Honda had a class win at Le Mans with a twin-turbo NSX but Toyota failed both times with its Eagle-One effort in 98 and 99. To their credit it was a very fast (albeit ugly) car but bad luck got in their way.

Ok, so let's talk about currently produced engines. Hmm, 2ZZ-GE vs K20A2 or F20C? That's a blowout. Thanks for playing folks.

On hybrid technology I'd say Honda and Toyota are neck and neck but I'd have to give the nod to Toyota for their forward thinking with the Prius. On other technologies Honda is way ahead with ASIMO (their walking robot), the Hondajet (their foray into manufacturing jet engines and even a custom airframe), and of course the generators, lawnmowers, and jet skis that they make as well.

Not to take anything away from Toyota, it is an excellent company, worthy of the prestige and accolades they receive. But don't make the mistake of saying it is a superior engineering company to Honda because it is not. You'll never hear me taking random pot shots at Toyota (unless it involves cheating and motorsport) so don't take cheap shots at Honda. Especially on something you can't back up.

-G

[Mike]

But it's just a Civic! Really I can't see why anyone would dump a lot of money in to a Civic wehn they could put $12k in to a Taurus SHO :lol:

(not geared towards you Jordan, just laughing at stuff)

[ScottyB]

lets not forget you can make almost any motor do almost anything if you just throw enough money at it :twisted:

[KPWSerpiente]

I don't understand the 1.5 liter reference.....the 3s-GTE in that MR2 is just under 2 liters. So wouldn't you have to compare it to a 2 liter Honda engine?

In motorsports Toyota loses big on the grand total vis a vis with Honda. 6 F1 championships to zero. 7 CART championships for Honda to 1 for Toyota.

How does Toyota lose big to Honda in Motorsports?

I certainly could care less about any of the competitions you mentioned.....but lets talk about F1.

Toyota debuted it's first F1 car in March of 2001
Honda made it's F1 debute in 1964 and has been competeting off and on, for 20 or so seasons.

Who would you expect to have more wins?


I started going through a million IDRC results pages where the Honda lost to a Toyota...but I think my point is made without all the examples I was generating.

-T

[G.Irish]

I don't understand the 1.5 liter reference.....the 3s-GTE in that MR2 is just under 2 liters. So wouldn't you have to compare it to a 2 liter Honda engine?

In motorsports Toyota loses big on the grand total vis a vis with Honda. 6 F1 championships to zero. 7 CART championships for Honda to 1 for Toyota.

How does Toyota lose big to Honda in Motorsports?

I certainly could care less about any of the competitions you mentioned.....but lets talk about F1.

Toyota debuted it's first F1 car in March of 2001
Honda made it's F1 debute in 1964 and has been competeting off and on, for 20 or so seasons.

Who would you expect to have more wins?


I started going through a million IDRC results pages where the Honda lost to a Toyota...but I think my point is made without all the examples I was generating.

-T

For drag racing I will concede that Toyota probably has built better platforms to that end because A. They build turbocharged engines and B. Toyota has made more RWD platforms. For the purposes of drag racing the Supra is an infinitely better platform than its Honda counterpart (the NSX). Still, Civics won several of the IDRC championships you talk about so its not exactly a wash. And just like you say you don't care about World Challenge GT/Touring Car, IMSA, Le Mans, CART, or JGTC, I can just as easily say I don't care about drag racing.

When talking about Formula 1 the fact that Toyota didn't show up to play is less significant than showing up and losing (and whining) like they did in CART but I used those points to illustrate that Honda can and does win at the highest level of motorsport competition. Can Toyota do the same? Probably. But I question their committment, attitude, and ethics. Gm fans could say 'Well if GM raced in F1...' but the fact is they don't and they will never be able to claim the glory of those that do, and those that do and win.

In the grand scheme of things one can say Toyota 'could've' done this and that but the fact is that they 'haven't' and until they 'do' Honda will hold more competitive prestige. If/when Toyota does win an F1 title, hopefully they will have done it without cheating. I suspect that the only reason they didn't get busted big time by the FIA over stealing designs from Ferrari is that the money Toyota brings to the table is too much for Emperor Bernie to give up.

[G.Irish]

I don't understand the 1.5 liter reference.....the 3s-GTE in that MR2 is just under 2 liters. So wouldn't you have to compare it to a 2 liter Honda engine?

The reason he made the 1.5L reference is that in the story the 3S-GTE was destroked so that it could make the cut for some of the top speed records (1.5L and 1.0L).

Edit: Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to say Toyota sucks or anything of the sort. I'm just saying that Honda does not give up anything to them in the engineering department and that Honda is more of a racing company than Toyota is.

Honda races to train their engineers and as a matter of tradition, Toyota races for marketing. Honda started out as a bike racing company, Toyota started out as a sewing machine manufacturer. Toyota is starting to get more serious about the racing thing and in time maybe they will outshine Honda significantly.

[DierwulfBL]

i know honda is better than toyota, i was just trying to start some controversy I'm a honda person trapped in a toyota car actually, just didnt wanna civic(too common) and didnt have enough money for anything over like 3k at the time. So i decided to go with originality and mod a car noone does. At the end of the day id choose a honda anyways.........swaps are 200% easier to do and people actually do them, as opposed to the 2 5th gen celicas statewide with 4age 20 valves, which would make mine third but its never gonna happen. At the end of the day i wish i had a honda and toyota sucks nowadays.......ever since they decided to "go clean" and get rid of their turbocharged cars they went downhill. The only way they can ever make a come back is with a AWD Turbo beast thatll compete with the STI/Evo 8. Im still waiting for that one though.......dammit.

[Dave]

I'll say it. Toyota can suck my nuts.
They haven't made a decent car since 1998. Lemme tell ya, that new MR-S and GT-S are HOT HOT HOT :x . The only supremacy that I will give Toyota in this battle are the following:
Toyota trucks and SUVs kick ass, hands down. If I buy a truck, you can be damned sure that it will be a Toyota
The 3S and 2JZ engines are incredible. I should include the 1J, as it is the precursor to the 2J, but they are essentially the same except the 1J is a bit more rev happy at the sacrifice of a half liter.
When they put thier mind to it, Toyota can produce an incredible car (read: supra). The supra and its engine are incredible well developed, coming from the factory like a plush racekar. Stout and reliable, they can be pushed to incredible limits before something will break or give up.

Although I love my Toyota(s), you can be damned sure that I will not be buying another one for a while. In fact, the only way I would buy a Toyota car (trucks are a different story) would be if I could find an MR2 at a most excellent price or another supra (hah, like that will happen). At this point, I continue to be amazed by Honda, Subaru has caught my eye, and Nissan seems to be getting the picture too. So that leaves Toyota sitting there with its thumb up its ass, focusing on the truck segment while its market share in the car market gets eaten up by other companies that can produce a product that is just as good, if not better, whithout it looking like ass.
Forgive me if I seem bitter, but I continue to be let down by the Toyota design dept., and simply can't believe how much they rade people on fixing things (yeah, I went to the service dept. today, so the wounds are fresh).

[Mike]

Honda is losing my interest, they really lost something once the platforms from the early to mid 90s ceased to be used in new cars. My eye is on Mazda for the most part, if only they would take about 400lbs off of the 3

[G.Irish]

The only way they can ever make a come back is with a AWD Turbo beast thatll compete with the STI/Evo 8. Im still waiting for that one though.......dammit.

Toyota may not come out with a competitor for the big wing awd bad boys (Evo/STi) but I'm sure they're not going to ignore performance for long. I wonder sometimes about their choices though. For instance, the MR2-Spyder beats the Miata in head to head performance but guess what? It doesn't sell too well. Why? Because it has almost zero cargo room. No one can afford to have it as their only car and even those who can afford a second car wouldn't want it because if they want to take a trip all they can pack is a pair of underwear and socks in the center console.

For the Celica Toyota was aiming for the Integra and they hit the mark pretty well. But as with everything else, everyone in the segment raised the bar. Supposedly Toyota is going to discontinue it which is a real shame because its a good car.

For the foreseeable future the next thing I see from Toyota is an IS430, whenever the next IS shows up. Other than that, who knows.

[.RJ]

i know honda is better than toyota, i was just trying to start some controversy

If you want to start a discussion, do the research, bring the tech and dont make blanket statements....

[G.Irish]

Honda is losing my interest, they really lost something once the platforms from the early to mid 90s ceased to be used in new cars. My eye is on Mazda for the most part, if only they would take about 400lbs off of the 3

Your sentiment echoes a big thing happening with Honda. Many of its fans from the 90's want to move up either to something more pimp (which they're starting to get right with the TL) or something more hardcore (which save for the S2000, they are failing miserably on). Really if Honda gave us one of the R's I'd be happy but they've got their mind set on those stupid factory performance kits.

So a lot of old Honda people are jumping into Subarus, Evos, BMW's, Mazdas, and Infiniti/Nissans. All of the other manufacturers are more than happy for the customers.

Now that Takeo Fukui (a former director of HRC) is at the helm I think we'll start to see Honda turn around though.