MM Goes Off-Roading in the Snow. Predictable Things Happen.

[Jake]

<JeremyClarkson>
In this forum thread...

I change a tire:



Ryan drives through some water:



...and Taylor says, "oh bother."



</JeremyClarkson>

When I bought my Range Rover, the guys at the overland shop told me a Range Rover would go anywhere... slowly. When Scott bought his RR Sport, I told him that too. So we decided to plan a small off-road trip, just the two of us, to try out our quasi-trucks. He wanted to go somewhere in western Maryland but it was the same travel time as going to JMU. So on Saturday, I said "well why don't we just go to school, get some students to join us, and run Flagpole?" Taylor drove down with us, Ryan showed up with his F150, and we met up with Kevin, Brandon, Adam, Nate and Joe.

There was a mention of snow the night before and our collective attitude was "eh, it should be fine."

So we met in the Baseball lot at 9 AM yesterday and marveled at Ryan's kind-of bald tires. After filling up with gas and distributing walkie-talkies to each car, we headed up 33 West for Switzer. The idea was to go up Switzer, cross over to Flagpole and go back down Flagpole.

We turned onto Switzer's... entrance road? or whatever it is, and pulled over to air down to about 25 psi. Easy. We're doing Real Off-Roading and not sucking at it yet!



I put the Range Rover in "Grass, Gravel, Snow" mode and raised the ride height as we set off. It was pretty snowy but we were making it up the trail easily enough. There is a point where the trail narrows and it took careful steering inputs to 1) not hit the trees that are threatening to take off your mirrors and 2) not slide 8" sideways and fall off the mountain. 



After going, I dunno, 30 minutes up the trail, Kevin and I reached a suitable stopping point and stopped so the others could catch up. Ryan's truck required even more careful input due to the larger size and tires that should have been replaced six months ago. When we stopped, Kevin noticed my right front tire was flat. Fuuuuuu. No worries, I have a full-size spare and it's got air in it! 

The others all caught up and stopped to help.





We get all the tire-changing shit out of the RR and get it in the air. In the snow. On the one flat part of the trail where we were. I grab my impact and sockets and the 24mm is what sort of fits, but Brandon (of Costco tire-changing fame) goes "no, these are a 22, I know it" - well, much like Ford and Chrysler (and whoever else), Land Rover uses these infernal chrome-capped lug nuts. The caps swell up and you can't fit a socket on 'em. Thankfully, Kevin had a hammer, so we hammered the 22mm socket onto each lug nut and then hammered the nut out of the socket. This made the tire change go slowly. But, we did it and I was back in business.

Taylor spent some time getting Nate turned around. His Outback was not a match for the snow and small bits of ice.

We decided to turn around and head back down Switzer the way we came. Going down was easy enough, Taylor provided some very good insight for what to do if you start to slide (less brakes, wheels straight, add throttle but gently). The Range Rovers have hill descent control, and between low range and HDC, I had no problems getting down the trail. Ryan was a bit panicked at first given how his route up the trail went - but his F150 also has a form of HDC and he got down with confidence.





Got to stop at the bottom of Switzer to take some photos and take turns running through a big mud puddle. Then, we decided to go up to Flagpole since "it's easier than Switzer, we can definitely do it."















Snow coated the road that leads to Reddish Knob/Flagpole but it wasn't bad. We had a nice drive up and everything was super scenic. 



We stopped at a little clearing and Taylor had a go at driving up a hill and then back down the hill. Looked easy enough, I'll try it next. My first attempt did not involve enough throttle and I couldn't get momentum to go up very far. So, Taylor recommended I back up and really give it the beans. 510 horsepower coming right up! I made it a bit farther but started losing traction again, and then... BOOM from the front left. No warning lights, no funny sounds, everything is sitting level so this can't be all bad. It wasn't all bad, but I had ripped a 4" gash in the inside sidewall of my front left tire. And if you're counting at home, I had already used my single full-size spare.



Scott was willing to give me the spare from his Range Rover Sport, but we were unsure if the spare would fit my truck given the Supercharged models have these gigantic front brakes (anything below a 20" wheel is a tight fit, if even possible). AND, the RRS comes with a space-saver spare. Thankfully, it cleared the caliper by a few mm or so. This did require the same lug nut dance due to swelling, but we at least knew the "fast" way to deal with it.













At this point, I decided to turn back with Brandon so we could head into town and try to find some tires. Surely Harrisonburg residents use a lot of 255/55/20 tires and they'll be in stock somewhere. The rest of the guys hung back briefly but soon headed back down as well, after reaching the summit of Flagpole just a few minutes past where I got stuck the second time.

Brandon and I got to town - Costco didn't have anything, and Walmart only had a Bridgestone, not the Michelin that I had on the rear. I decided to limp it home on the two spares (60 mph max on 81/66 is super fun!) and deal with it this morning. We grabbed some wings as a bigger group before parting ways. Taylor was kind enough to follow me all the way up 81 and 66 until our exits had us split.

Thankfully, my local tire shop was able to get two replacement Defender LTX in my size and they'll be installed by the time I leave work today. Tire Rack and Discount Tire are out of stock until late March, but his warehouse had five in stock. 

Even with all of the bullshittery, I still had a ton of fun. Scott and I definitely want to go back and do these trails again in the dry, when we can see the rocks that are pointed at our sidewalls and thus avoid them. The first tire was lost to bad luck, the second to my ignoring the overland shop's advice. I have now learned something and my wallet is slightly lighter for it, but of all that could have broken, this wasn't so bad.

TLDR: Scott and I drove to Harrisonburg to practice changing tires in very adverse conditions while sliding down a mountain.

[.RJ]

you guys crazy

[lxpeery]

I'm super jealous. One of these days, I'll get tires that actually have tread and be able to do this stuff again. Oh, and a new cv shaft I guess. Damn boot.

[Deceus]

I so wanted to come to this but I was in DC/Maryland for the weekend to deal with some ID/laptop nonsense. I'm pretty sure a regular cab + long bed is probably a terrible configuration for any type of offroading anyways.

[Jake]

I so wanted to come to this but I was in DC/Maryland for the weekend to deal with some ID/laptop nonsense. I'm pretty sure a regular cab + long bed is probably a terrible configuration for any type of offroading anyways.

Ryan's truck is about at the limit of what's possible on some of these trails, especially if things are in bloom and trees are more filled out (width will be an issue unless you're okay with surprise pinstripes). The long wheelbase can be a detriment as well.

[kcdehart]

Along the way...

Taylor found yet another use for a Toyota V8


My camera had a hard time figuring out what to focus on


And I learned that saving from your snapchat story is a great way to ruin a good picture


Oh, and here's a good pic of Jake's hole


Had a great time despite the setbacks! Flagpole is fairly easy in the dry - you guys should definitely try it again.

[Deceus]

I break my tires lose all the time in the rain on any kind of incline without 4wd on. I have learned there is almost no weight over my rear tires but it does tow like a beast. If the Ralliart tanks in value too hard it's just going to become a rallycross car.

[JPolen01]

Looks like a great time!

[Senor_Taylor]

It was a lot of fun! Unfortunately, wheeling in the snow and ice is the worst possible situation. Mud is fine because it is predictable, doesn't change properties on a whim, and also doesn't accumulate the longer you're out there and hide the real dangers (like sharp rocks). Y'all essentially did your first wheeling on hard mode, even though the trails were easy.

I really think it would serve everyone to get a taste of more technical stuff in dry conditions. It's more fun since it's about skill, picking the right lines, and taking your time instead of "POWER POWER POWER, PLEASE DON'T SLIDE INTO A TREE". Everyone did very well and I appreciate everyone taking my advice when the trail got hairy. Unfortunately, this trip was like an open bar to a recovering alcoholic and I feel the urge to look at parts for the 4Runner right now.

As far as you other people looking to do this, winter time is the only time to trail ride in anything larger than a Tacoma without wrecking your paint since the trees and bushes aren't growing over the trail. Tires > Technology. 4WD with no lockers and the least ground clearance of everyone, a lot of the skinny pedal, and good tires got me everywhere I needed to go. I can't imagine what a Range Rover could do full locked with good tires and an experienced driver.

Also, don't offroad if you aren't ready to break something. Props to Jake for being in good spirits.

Thanks everyone for coming out and having fun! Thanks Brandon for taking so many photos. I've got some GoPro footage to upload later.

[Jake]

It was a lot of fun! Unfortunately, wheeling in the snow and ice is the worst possible situation. Mud is fine because it is predictable, doesn't change properties on a whim, and also doesn't accumulate the longer you're out there and hide the real dangers (like sharp rocks). Y'all essentially did your first wheeling on hard mode, even though the trails were easy.

I really think it would serve everyone to get a taste of more technical stuff in dry conditions. It's more fun since it's about skill, picking the right lines, and taking your time instead of "POWER POWER POWER, PLEASE DON'T SLIDE INTO A TREE". Everyone did very well and I appreciate everyone taking my advice when the trail got hairy. Unfortunately, this trip was like an open bar to a recovering alcoholic and I feel the urge to look at parts for the 4Runner right now.

As far as you other people looking to do this, winter time is the only time to trail ride in anything larger than a Tacoma without wrecking your paint since the trees and bushes aren't growing over the trail. Tires > Technology. 4WD with no lockers and the least ground clearance of everyone, a lot of the skinny pedal, and good tires got me everywhere I needed to go. I can't imagine what a Range Rover could do full locked with good tires and an experienced driver.

Also, don't offroad if you aren't ready to break something. Props to Jake for being in good spirits.

Thanks everyone for coming out and having fun! Thanks Brandon for taking so many photos. I've got some GoPro footage to upload later.

I mean, I had a choice to either be pissed that I ruined two nearly-new tires and cost myself some money, or be glad that we collectively had the spares to get me down the mountain and home, and that my job pays me such that I can afford two new tires this morning. Still learned a lot, had a great time, and will absolutely go back once it's warmer and dry. 

I'm taking some non-MM friends up Flagpole this summer so I want to run it (and Switzer) in the dry to really make sure I know what's what.

[Senor_Taylor]

I was hoping you'd take this opportunity to get better tires.

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[rherold9]

I'll provide a small update when I get time, but this was the sketchiest, fun thing I have ever done.

[Jake]

I was hoping you'd take this opportunity to get better tires.

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I do 15k+ per year on the highway and a few thousand of that involves a gigantic trailer. Didn't want to go with an all-terrain sort of tire given the use. Good thing is, Range Rover wheels are silly cheap on Craigslist (like $200 for a set) so I could always grab another set with something used and more aggressive.

I think the LTX will be fine if I avoid bouncing them off of sharp rocks at 5000 rpm.

[Senor_Taylor]

I wasn't concerned with side wall strength. Cutting tires is avoided by more careful navigation of rocks, this is hard to do with 6 inches of snow.

My Duratracs have notoriously weak sidewalls.

You and Scott had more capable vehicles but really terrible tires. You wouldn't have to spin at 5000 RPM if you could let your lockers do their job with good tires.

Good tires -> Right height -> Suspension Travel -> Lockers would be my path on building something and you have the latter three, but not the first.

Edit: Replace the above workflow with "Big balls" -> "Genuine disregard for your vehicle coming back in one piece" and you'll have the same results.

[.RJ]

I do a lot of mountain biking up that way on the same trails - use the jeep trails and pavement to go up, singletrack on the way down - knowing the area well looks like y'all had fun.

[Jake]

You and Scott had more capable vehicles but really terrible tires. You wouldn't have to spin at 5000 RPM if you could let your lockers do their job with good tires.

The only 5k rpm bit was where I was aggressively bouncing it off of those rocks. Otherwise the lockers did work fine with the tires I had and minimal revving. I trust they'll do fine if I come back in the dry, can see the rocks to avoid, and otherwise want something well-mannered for my momUV that is not a trail rig

[GTBrandon]

This day was a blast and it made me consider finding the cheapest tacoma on Craigslist and sending it every weekend until the car, or more likely I, die in the process. I think Jake and I aggreed in the snow, what we were doing was almost more sketch than 10/10th on a racetrack due to the unpredictability.

On a side note, damn does the iPhone X take some good photos when you’re willing to get the right angle. Suck it Pixels [emoji6]

I actually hope we can do more of these trips and I’ll continue to ride along with my trusty case of beer to distract me from my impending death to the side of me down a mountain. But for real it seems like MM is growing their offroading crowd so I’m excited to see where that goes!

Oh and this is what happened to some guys that went a week later when there was no snow but still lots of ice on the ground...no bueno.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1LhCqu_...xTC-oOHa5L

[Senor_Taylor]

Just a heads up, for the same price, an XJ is 4 times better than a Tacoma up to a point. You'll need to pay good money for a TRD that isn't completely broken.

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[Tyler.M]

Man, I'd love to join next time. Looked like a blast!