***The Official Time Trials/Time Attack Thread***

[Mike]

<3 cute... troll me all you want.

it's a great way to get shit done. i'm only doing it for your own good.

[Kaan]

no you dont you need a big straight metal tube/square tube/whatever... or a big level. it goes quickly

[D_Eclipse9916]

Fine, then your helping me, prepare to free up a night after work next week (PWEASE?!?) Ill be pulling swapping subframes tuesday night/wednesday night. So probably thursday/friday. (if you can)

[Kaan]

<3 cute... troll me all you want.

it's a great way to get shit done. i'm only doing it for your own good.

donate cash... that will ge things done faster. :-P

Kpro, konis, and bushing set... it should be all i have left before going to the HondaWorks (rumor is the name changed because Honda sued them) to work with Kevin on getting it all done. 4-5 days in NC <3

[Kaan]

Fine, then your helping me, prepare to free up a night after work next week (PWEASE?!?) Ill be pulling swapping subframes tuesday night/wednesday night. So probably thursday/friday. (if you can)

center to center your car is 108 inches apart. we need to find something 9 feet long and straight to level the pads.

i'm doing a full body swap on two bikes this weekend and will probably be at HD, so i'll let you know what i find. I also ned to swap sprokets and chain on my street bike. i'm a little busy until tuesday/wednesday.

[xvxax]

DJ I can bring 150lbs in weight with me next Thursday/Friday to toss in the drivers seat.

[Evan]

the day Kaan has a track car and puts it on track, ill be there to do a slow clap

[D_Eclipse9916]

Seriously why dont we have an MM alumni chump car... Kaans got a welder, cage doesnt need to be particularyly special.

[Kaan]

the day Kaan has a track car and puts it on track, ill be there to do a slow clap

sweet! i'll have fans! you guys do remember i was in group 2 at one point in my life lol. its not like i've never been on track

[Mike]

no, i don't remember that. must have been too long ago.

[Kaan]

no, i don't remember that. must have been too long ago.

You were probably strolling drunk down port republic!

[Steve85]

I was reading a thread over in the NASA forums about "pie in the sky" rule changes and been talking to a few C4 owners who are going to TT. Their approach was basically that they modded the car and they are going to run where they class for now. Most have done enough over the years that they are in TTA and just looking to have fun.

Kaan and DJ know what thread I'm thread I'm talking about and the S2K guys were asking for a weight adjustment that DJ argued against (agreed) so I did a little poking around to see what the deal was with the S2000 v E36 M3 and found that a C4 has to be among the worst classed cars out there. Yes, some "homer" exaggeration there...

From showroom stock condition to maximized TTC, a 2000-2003 S2000 gets 30 points (TTD**- gets 4 back on tire size so 10 in TTD + 20 in TTC), E36 M3 gets 43 (TTD*- 13 in TTD +20 in TTC), and 89-91 C4 gets...19 (TTD** + 7 points for +30mm so 19 in TTC)... and has to be the heaviest. All three cars are rated at 240-245hp. The S2K comp weight is 370+lbs less.

A C4 cannot run in stock condition without taking +1 for tires in the 85-88 cars and +7 from 89-91. I want a star back!

As I understand it, the intention of ** rating is really to have the car run in the next class up with a few extra points, hence the comparison to the top TTC cars, but in this case the extra points are used just getting to stock.

[D_Eclipse9916]

I was reading a thread over in the NASA forums about "pie in the sky" rule changes and been talking to a few C4 owners who are going to TT. Their approach was basically that they modded the car and they are going to run where they class for now. Most have done enough over the years that they are in TTA and just looking to have fun.

Kaan and DJ know what thread I'm thread I'm talking about and the S2K guys were asking for a weight adjustment that DJ argued against (agreed) so I did a little poking around to see what the deal was with the S2000 v E36 M3 and found that a C4 has to be among the worst classed cars out there. Yes, some "homer" exaggeration there...

From showroom stock condition to maximized TTC, a 2000-2003 S2000 gets 30 points (TTD**- gets 4 back on tire size so 10 in TTD + 20 in TTC), E36 M3 gets 43 (TTD*- 13 in TTD +20 in TTC), and 89-91 C4 gets...19 (TTD** + 7 points for +30mm so 19 in TTC)... and has to be the heaviest. All three cars are rated at 240-245hp. The S2K comp weight is 370+lbs less.

A C4 cannot run in stock condition without taking +1 for tires in the 85-88 cars and +7 from 89-91. I want a star back!

As I understand it, the intention of ** rating is really to have the car run in the next class up with a few extra points, hence the comparison to the top TTC cars, but in this case the extra points are used just getting to stock.

Unfortunately you cant go by JUST weight. But I agree. The corvette seems a bit strange. The reason I refuted the s2000 guys who wanted less weight is they are already 326lbs lighter for one star (a star counts as 7 points, only about 100lbs according to the rules), have a newer(better chassis), double wishbone suspension and a more aerodynamic shape. Again seems like BMW fairy dust as to why the e36s are fast.

As for the corvette, thats a good question.250 horsepower..but then...you have a MASSIVE 340lb/ft of twist. I would assume this is why. Along with decent aerodynamics, I can see the C4 being TTD**.

Are you saying that your stock C4 corvette isnt faster than a stock E36 M3? I guess that would be a good question. I dont know the answer to it either. I would maybe post up and try to get a star removed if I were you, I would have no qualms with the C4 around a stock e36 M3. Maybe im wrong, but ive never driven a stock one anyway.

[D_Eclipse9916]

So on the same vein..this setup worked
Nationals Setup for my TTC car.

1999 BMW M3 Base Class: TTD*
Base Weight (with driver): 3176lbs

+13 Hoosier A6 (I run R6s regionally)
+3 Shocks
+2 Springs
+1 Aftermarket LSD
+1 Intake
+2 Intake Manifold
+1 Power Pulleys/Fan Delete
+2 Cat-back
+4 Wing
+3 Splitter


However, how can I make it faster? After being on track with an e46 m3 with the same power to weight, it seemed that he had MUCH more grip with his 275s than my 245s. Maybe his driving, maybe not. But it raised a few questions. Looked at a few things. My tire to weight ratio is horrible compraed to Miatas, hondas, e46 m3s, corvettes etc. To bring them more in line, a 10-inch wide tire looks like a better option. After looking around, there is a 255/35/18 that is 10" wide (a cheater tire).

So im thinking....put back on stock exhaust that will maybe cost me 2-3whp, and go with those tires +1 for tire size. And then maybe getting rid of my power pulleys and going to aftermarket sway bars.
So my laayout would be this. I am looking for input?

Nationals Setup for my TTC car.

1999 BMW M3 Base Class: TTD*
Base Weight (with driver): 3176lbs

+14 Hoosier A6 (I run R6s regionally) 255/35/18
+3 Shocks
+2 Springs
+2 Sway bars
+1 Aftermarket LSD
+1 Intake
+2 Intake Manifold
+4 Wing
+3 Splitter

As a plus, this would make me more competitive in GTS2 as I have to restrict horsepower anyway...

[Kaan]

V8s get killed because of the TQ

[Steve85]

Ya know, I thought about the torque thing and maximizing tq when hp is rule limited makes sense. However, by removing 10 - 30mm of tire you reduce the ability to use that tq. It's penalized for the tq AND the tire to use it. I think taking a star away and forcing one to take tire points to use the tq and handle the weight is a fair compromise.

I'd bet the 1/4 mile times are at least equal between the three cars with second half of the track (a road course straight) going to the BMW/Honda. The long tubes designed to go on a 305cid run out of breath at 4500RPM, and I mean no breath, it's like hitting a wall. That's why it only makes 230-50hp with that much tq. The tq advantage in this car is neutered by the lack of RPM. If we had to pull our trailers around the course, then yes, a second (and third) star would be appropriate.

As I unwind the wheel, I can't put down any more tq on a 255 A6 than you, the tire and traction circle don't care how much is available.

I don't think the pre-LT1 cars (84-91, 88-91 have about 20hp over 85-88) are faster than an E36 M3. Similar pw/weight, more usable RPM, and given 10yrs of suspension/chassis research by a company as good as BMW it wouldn't be a surprise. There are advantages/disadvantages to each that I think are pretty well balanced and would expect them to be classed the same. The S2K folks are high, for all the reasons you mentioned.

I might make a case if I was seriously considering a TT venture but it's not going to happen anytime soon. Which is pretty much why I posted this here and not there, not trying to make a stink, just a discussion.

edit- unless you guys think there is a case, I might see if a few of the guys running would be interested. so, honest feedback, i'm certainly not coming at this as competitor who's trying to blame the "system".

[D_Eclipse9916]

Ya know, I thought about the torque thing and maximizing tq when hp is rule limited makes sense. However, by removing 10 - 30mm of tire you reduce the ability to use that tq. It's penalized for the tq AND the tire to use it. I think taking a star away and forcing one to take tire points to use the tq and handle the weight is a fair compromise.

I'd bet the 1/4 mile times are at least equal between the three cars with second half of the track (a road course straight) going to the BMW/Honda. The long tubes designed to go on a 305cid run out of breath at 4500RPM, and I mean no breath, it's like hitting a wall. That's why it only makes 230-50hp with that much tq. The tq advantage in this car is neutered by the lack of RPM. If we had to pull our trailers around the course, then yes, a second (and third) star would be appropriate.

As I unwind the wheel, I can't put down any more tq on a 255 A6 than you, the tire and traction circle don't care how much is available.

I don't think the pre-LT1 cars (84-91, 88-91 have about 20hp over 85-88) are faster than an E36 M3. Similar pw/weight, more usable RPM, and given 10yrs of suspension/chassis research by a company as good as BMW it wouldn't be a surprise. There are advantages/disadvantages to each that I think are pretty well balanced and would expect them to be classed the same. The S2K folks are high, for all the reasons you mentioned.

I might make a case if I was seriously considering a TT venture but it's not going to happen anytime soon. Which is pretty much why I posted this here and not there, not trying to make a stink, just a discussion.

edit- unless you guys think there is a case, I might see if a few of the guys running would be interested. so, honest feedback, i'm certainly not coming at this as competitor who's trying to blame the "system".

Even if you are thinking of just maybe running TT you should absolutely make a case for it.

[Kaan]

Swapped front wheel drive HONDAs are the gingers in TT classing