The Ant and the Grasshopper

[Evan]

I think that I have been set straight in a couple cases in my life by a well informed republican. That's what the entire orangeband.org initiative here is for. It's for open conversation just so people can learn from other people's viewpoints and experiences. I think we'd be selling ourselves short if we didn't discuss politics.

Very true, maybe I should rephrase that to be Internet politics discussions.

Or perhaps Im just jaded. I used to participate in Honda-Tech political discussion quite often, which invariably resulted in the intellectual equivalent of monkeys screeching at each other. Often times, I wouldnt even take a side, just tried to facilitate people, pointing out false sources, bias, propaganda, etc. But it didnt even do any good.
I just havent found many people that open minded to be able to consider other's viewpoints. It always just turns into a "fight"

[Maengelito]

if clinton had any balls with foreign policy, then the public probably would never have heard of terrorist groups like a-q. but peaceniks get all pissy if there's one thought of shooting someone.

You obviously haven't heard from this guy: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/03/24/911.commission/">http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/03/ ... ommission/</a><!-- m -->
He testified that Clinton took it more seriously.

says the guy who is "good friends" with a lead advisor of john kerry's. he also happened to write his book long ago, but didnt publish it until now, election year, and is probably raking in millions. i will abstain from making any comments on the book itself because i haven't read it, but i did tell you to stop using cnn as a reliable source. besides, that whole 9/11 commission was just a bunch of finger pointing which is accomplishing nothing.

[G.Irish]

The problem with most political discussions is that opinions are usually what are used to determine fault and causality in the actions of our government. Sometimes one can attribute responsibility for certain outcomes directly to a leader other times one cannot.

In the case of the economy I cannot for one minute believe Clinton was responsible for the great internet bubble nor was Bush responsible for the bust. The bust was the fault of tons of IT companies with bad ideas getting money thrown at them by greedy investors. It must be said that the fiscal policy of the current administration has taken great pains to keep the economy rolling in spit of the invevitable downturn. Tax cuts are typically regarded as good policy during economic downturns but when tax revenue is low government has to be much more prudent about expenditures. I don't think this war was a good use of US funds for many reasons but now that we're involved we have to finish the job correctly. Bowing out now would be stupid, and I hope neither Bush or Kerry is considering that.

My major problem with the war is that we have a hard time justifying it with substantive evidence. WMD's? None. Saddam funding terrorists? Little to no evidence. Iraqi freedom? We don't give a damn about anyone else's freedom otherwise we'd be at war with China as well as several third world nations in Africa and Latin America.

Now I'm not saying that had Saddam been left in power that we never would've had problems with him again. Maybe on down the line one of his sons (who by all accounts are more brutal than he is) would have been an even bigger threat. But unfortunately history is not written in what ifs. History will only remember that we pushed for a war with dubious justification at best. Why should we care? Because are sowing the seeds for future hatred with our arrogant, self-righteous, and sometimes foolish foreign policy. The only way I can see this situation turn out for the better is if we're able to establish a solid lasting democracy in Iraq that significantly improves the lives of the Iraqi people.

Brian brought a good point about war casualties. While I am not happy when US soldiers get killed 600 is a paltry number compared to wars of the past. Hopefully Americans will see the media sensationalism for what it is. Again, even though I don't think we needed to do this in the first place, I hope that we can set up a stable government in Iraq in a reasonable amount of time. If we don't its going to send a bad message to the world on many fronts.

An interesting aside about the whole mess with relations in the Middle East is that our cowboy diplomacy in the 80's gave Al Qaeda its start. We funded and trained Afghan rebels in the hope that they'd cause the Soviets trouble, which they did. With the training and equipment they received some of them went on to form the Taliban, others trained their countryment to become fighters in their terrorist groups. There are many similar stories like Panama, several African countries, and most importantly Iraq.

At any rate its heartening to see that the people in this club can form intelligent opinions rather than spout rhetoric and jump around like trained monkeys for either party. In my estimation partisan politics are often the biggest impediment to finding solutions to our problems.

[G.Irish]

says the guy who is "good friends" with a lead advisor of john kerry's. he also happened to write his book long ago, but didnt publish it until now, election year, and is probably raking in millions. i will abstain from making any comments on the book itself because i haven't read it, but i did tell you to stop using cnn as a reliable source. besides, that whole 9/11 commission was just a bunch of finger pointing which is accomplishing nothing.

I too have to seriously question this guy Clarke's motives. How convenient on an election year that he releases his book. If he felt so strongly about the issue he should have squawking a long time ago. Hopefully we will find out soon whether his claims have merit.

[JackoliciousLegs]

Clarke started writing the book in march and published it in dec. Thats what he said a couple nights ago