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+--- Forum: Technical Discussion (https://forum.mmsports.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=11)
+--- Thread: Who is the crazy one? (/showthread.php?tid=6302)
- Apoc - 08-15-2007
.RJ Wrote:To me the rulebook is explicit and its pretty clear about what they want.
Well perhaps that speaks to a larger problem. I think there's a lot in the CCR that seems open to interpretation. We may disagree as to whether or not this is one of them but there are others. Ultimately all that matters is the inspecting official and person who has to use.
- .RJ - 08-15-2007
Apoc Wrote:Ultimately all that matters is the inspecting official and person who has to use.
![[Image: Rainbow_Brite_Sharing-JrTee.jpg]](http://www.80stees.com/images/products/Rainbow_Brite_Sharing-JrTee.jpg)
- white_2kgt - 08-15-2007
.RJ Wrote:Evan Wrote:2) None of this applies to instructors cars anyway
Well the CCR doesnt differentiate between 'passenger seat in an instructor car' and 'instructors seat'. Just driver and passenger. So according to the book they should meet the same minimum spec - my passengers always got a crappy, uncomfortable corbeau seat
Moron, look, here is the rule as written,
ccr 11.3 Wrote:All participants should utilize equipment that meets or exceeds these minimum requirements, while driving on track (Note- passenger equipment must meet or exceed these minimum requirements; but do not necessarily have to match the driverÔÇÖs equipment):
1. Use a proper fitting helmet that meets Snell 1990 (SA1990; M1990) or newer (or equivalent) standards for cars or motorcycles.
2. The driver and any passenger must utilize modern style* stock seatbelts in very good condition, or a DOT approved restraint system, while operating a vehicle on the track. Restraint system requirements are listed in Section #11.4.8. *Lap belts used without any shoulder restraints are not permitted.
3. Non-synthetic fabric clothing (i.e. cotton). At least footwear, a T-shirt and long pants must be worn. Individual track requirements may be different.
4. No open toed shoes, shorts, or tank tops may be worn in the car while on track.
5. Drivers should wear eye protection such as goggles, safety glasses or face shields preferably made of new impact resistant materials.
6. It is recommended that any corrective eyeglass material used be made of safety glass type that meets U.S. Government standards.
ccr 11.4.8 Wrote:11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses
The seatbelts should be in good condition. No damage may be present on the seatbelts and they must be the factory configuration. Any harness or any restraint system, other than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5, in all respects* except for the expiration regulations. Harnesses that are expired for racing may be used providing that
they are in at least very good condition. The use of a lap belt without any shoulder restraint is not permitted. Passenger seatbelts must meet the same minimum requirements per the CCR as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger. Notepassenger equipment need not match the installed equipment on the driverÔÇÖs side. *Aftermarket DOT-certified belt sets, installed to the manufacturerÔÇÖs specifications may be allowed. Proof of DOT certification and proper installation is the driverÔÇÖs responsibility.
Let's review, what is the MINIMUM requirements?
ccr 11.4.8 Wrote:The seatbelts should be in good condition. No damage may be present on the seatbelts and they must be the factory configuration.
That's it, period, end of story, stock belts in factory configuration is minimum required. Therefore that is ALL required for passenger NO MATTER WHAT the driver is using. I'm sorry if the two of you are to thick headed to get that or understand the written rules, there's nothing else I can say to make it clearer. NASA has even gone so far as to put the NOTES in the rules and colored them over the past few yrs b/c so many people have been quoting this rule incorrectly AS RJ and Evan are now doing. You are wrong, 100% wrong in saying passenger must have harness if driver has harness. It's right there in black and white. Any instructor clinic can say whatever they want, until it is written these are the rules, period, end of story. At this point I don't give a fuck about any other club, this is NASAs rules. If you want to continue to argue the point show me in writing from the CCR or supps where it says "if a driver has harnesses the passenger must as well".
- Apoc - 08-15-2007
Wow... "these" is even underlined in section 11.3.
+1 point Chad.
- .RJ - 08-15-2007
1. Driver and passenger have to have the same minimum requirements = check.
2. Factory stock = good
Then you keep forgetting this detail:
ccr 11.4.8 Wrote:Any harness or any restraint system, other than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5
3. If its not factory stock, then it has to conform to 15.5 = see different minimum requirements.
But, whatever, I'm done with this. You might have a different interpretation of the rule because its not 100% clear in black and white, but thats not how it works in practice.
- JustinG - 08-15-2007
![[Image: wtf.png]](http://my.bzflag.org/resources/images/wtf.png)
- Apoc - 08-15-2007
.RJ Wrote:Then you keep forgetting this detail:
ccr 11.4.8 Wrote:Any harness or any restraint system, other than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5
3. If its not factory stock, then it has to conform to 15.5 = see different minimum requirements.
That rule (11.3) specifically states with the use of the word "these" that the passenger does not inherit the new driver requirements UNLESS the PASSENGER is changed from stock.
- white_2kgt - 08-15-2007
.RJ Wrote:Then you keep forgetting this detail:
ccr 11.4.8 Wrote:Any harness or any restraint system, other than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5
3. If its not factory stock, then it has to conform to 15.5 = see different minimum requirements.
Correct. If you MODIFY the passenger side then you have to conform to 15.5, if you don't modify the passenger side then you don't have to do anything!
and speaking of 15.5 I should have smacked Kaan in the head when he cut my belts last year at VIR, theres NOTHING in the rules about cutting belts after a crash.
- .RJ - 08-15-2007
white_2kgt Wrote:Correct. If you MODIFY the passenger side then you have to conform to 15.5, if you don't modify the passenger side then you don't have to do anything!
If you modify the driver side, then the passenger side no longer meets the same minimum requirements - since the requirements have now changed for the driver.
white_2kgt Wrote:and speaking of 15.5 I should have smacked Kaan in the head when he cut my belts last year at VIR, theres NOTHING in the rules about cutting belts after a crash.
Would you seriously re-use belts after an impact? Really? For serious?
I mean... why the hell would you do that? A set of belts is what, $200 for something nice? Is a failed belt in another impact worth $200 to you?
- Apoc - 08-15-2007
.RJ Wrote:white_2kgt Wrote:Correct. If you MODIFY the passenger side then you have to conform to 15.5, if you don't modify the passenger side then you don't have to do anything!
If you modify the driver side, then the passenger side no longer meets the same minimum requirements - since the requirements have now changed for the driver.
They don't have to! 11.3 says "these requirements"!!!21341212121
- .RJ - 08-15-2007
:fart:
- Apoc - 08-15-2007
post whore!
- white_2kgt - 08-15-2007
.RJ Wrote:white_2kgt Wrote:Correct. If you MODIFY the passenger side then you have to conform to 15.5, if you don't modify the passenger side then you don't have to do anything!
If you modify the driver side, then the passenger side no longer meets the same minimum requirements - since the requirements have now changed for the driver.
Ugh. The 'minimum' never changes FOR THE CAR.
.RJ Wrote:white_2kgt Wrote:and speaking of 15.5 I should have smacked Kaan in the head when he cut my belts last year at VIR, theres NOTHING in the rules about cutting belts after a crash.
Would you seriously re-use belts after an impact? Really? For serious?
I mean... why the hell would you do that? A set of belts is what, $200 for something nice? Is a failed belt in another impact worth $200 to you?
No, but I could have sent them off to sabelt to be checked for $50 vs having to buy all new ones. They clearly won't check belts that have been cut.
- .RJ - 08-15-2007
white_2kgt Wrote:They clearly won't check belts that have been cut.
They can be re-webbed though.
- white_2kgt - 08-15-2007
.RJ Wrote:white_2kgt Wrote:They clearly won't check belts that have been cut.
They can be re-webbed though.
yea, but at that point I'd just buy new ones.
- .RJ - 08-15-2007
You'll have them checked and reuse them, but wont reweb?
dubya-tee-eff....
- white_2kgt - 08-15-2007
.RJ Wrote:You'll have them checked and reuse them, but wont reweb?
dubya-tee-eff....
Yea, I'd have them checked and if OK'ed I'd have no problem using them. I would not spend MORE money to have them rewebbed when I could just buy new ones for a few dollars more.
- Evan - 08-15-2007
well, im not going to waste anymore time trying to pull chads and chris' heads out of their asses.
Sign up for a HPDE, request me as an instructor and show up with a driver raceseat/harness and stock in the passenger seat.
You can claim to be "right" all you want while you sit in the paddock during your sessions.
- white_2kgt - 08-15-2007
Evan Wrote:well, im not going to waste anymore time trying to pull chads and chris' heads out of their asses.
Sign up for a HPDE, request me as an instructor and show up with a driver raceseat/harness and stock in the passenger seat.
You can claim to be "right" all you want while you sit in the paddock during your sessions.
That's fine, I'll get another instructor or ask for a refund since I've followed all the 'rules' put in writing before me.
- Apoc - 08-15-2007
Evan Wrote:well, im not going to waste anymore time trying to pull chads and chris' heads out of their asses
Read: I lost the argument but I'm not going to admit it.
Evan Wrote:Sign up for a HPDE, request me as an instructor and show up with a driver raceseat/harness and stock in the passenger seat.
You can claim to be "right" all you want while you sit in the paddock during your sessions.
...or just go out and win the HPDE4 Championship!