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+--- Thread: Took the S2000 to the strip. (/showthread.php?tid=2701)
- Beej - 08-29-2005
:lol:
It's an '03, just the 2.0L motor. I can't imagine feathering the clutch at 3k would do much of anything in either motor.
In terms of OT, this didn't go anywhere near trq vs. hp like I figured it would. In conclusion, I, the Yellow Dart, feel I have done a great job illustrating the many differences between hustle and bustle, may they both rest in peace.
- G.Irish - 08-29-2005
WRXtranceformed Wrote:So you don't have the desire to drive a high horsepower car on the track simply because you could crash it? You could crash any car, at any relatively high speed.
By your reasoning, you might as well not even own a car like that, because you can't get the most of out it unless you track it and if you track it you have the potential to crash and die. I've met plenty of people that track high horsepower cars and have yet to injure themselves or their cars. Like I said before, it depends on how hard you push your car and what your skill level is.
Correct, you can crash any car at a racetrack.
And also correct, it depends on how hard you're pushing your car and what your skill level is. The problem is, a lot of people who crash overestimated their skill level.
I'd say you can start out tracking a relatively powerful car but you've got to be very diligent of keeping your attitude in the right place and be very methodical about how you approach the track (and your progression as a driver).
This tends to be more difficult than it sounds because it can be a big hit to your ego when you're slowly coming up to speed in your fast car and you get rolled by a 100 hp shitbox (E30, CRX, Miata, etc.). It takes a mature attitude to not care about that.
Even if your ego is not a problem, a small mistake is going to be magnified with a faster car. A lapse of attention or a bad habit could seriously ruin your day. In a slower car you'd have more time to gather it up and if you should exit the racing surface you're not going to be going as fast into that tire wall.
All that said it can be done, and plenty of people do it. Its just that having the benefit of hindsight most people would agree that its easier to start with a slower ride then move up. Either way step 1 is to get a good deal of autocrossing seat time before you head out to track.
- G.Irish - 08-29-2005
Bill 84 318i Wrote:In terms of OT, this didn't go anywhere near trq vs. hp like I figured it would. In conclusion, I, the Yellow Dart, feel I have done a great job illustrating the many differences between hustle and bustle, may they both rest in peace.
Oh yeah I forgot to respond to the original post. :lol:
Search R&T and C&D's websites, I remember them devoting a good deal to the art of launching a St00k.
- .RJ - 08-29-2005
G.Irish Wrote:Correct, you can crash any car at a racetrack.
I crashed nice and good with 130hp. It doesnt take much to get you way in over your head. With 300hp bad things will happen very, very quickly.
Plenty of people track their 300+ hp cars as novices, but they are not using nearly all the power they have. I've had several students in 300+ hp cars and I keep them on a tight leash for most of the weekend. It often takes a lot of work to keep their head out of their ass and focused on the task of driving the racetrack instead of just drag racing down the straights and parking it in the corners.
Quote:By your reasoning, you might as well not even own a car like that, because you can't get the most of out it unless you track it and if you track it you have the potential to crash and die. I've met plenty of people that track high horsepower cars and have yet to injure themselves or their cars. Like I said before, it depends on how hard you push your car and what your skill level is.
Anytime you drive on a racetrack you assume some level of risk. The amount of financial risk you assume is easily controlled.
With the amount of money you've dumped into your WRX you could have bought a nice, fun, reliable track car (think integra, miata, se-r, e30, etc) if you wanted to go that route - just for reference point. You will also have a lot more fun starting in a lower hp car and learning how to manage momentum and concentrating on driving, rather than dealing with a high HP car where the only thing you're managing is surviving the session without getting in over your head, and worrying about the brakes/engine.
- WRXtranceformed - 08-29-2005
G.Irish Wrote:Sure, that's the risk of driving a powerful car. If I can find the time to make it to the track, I'll definitely be driving my car and not starting out in my brother's Lancer OZ Rally thing. I would push myself to what I felt comfortable, and if I got rolled by other cars (no matter how powerful) I wouldn't feel too discouraged because I'm a beginner on a road track. You have to start somewhere, and you have to lose when you start... that's part of learning.WRXtranceformed Wrote:So you don't have the desire to drive a high horsepower car on the track simply because you could crash it? You could crash any car, at any relatively high speed.
By your reasoning, you might as well not even own a car like that, because you can't get the most of out it unless you track it and if you track it you have the potential to crash and die. I've met plenty of people that track high horsepower cars and have yet to injure themselves or their cars. Like I said before, it depends on how hard you push your car and what your skill level is.
Correct, you can crash any car at a racetrack.
And also correct, it depends on how hard you're pushing your car and what your skill level is. The problem is, a lot of people who crash overestimated their skill level.
I'd say you can start out tracking a relatively powerful car but you've got to be very diligent of keeping your attitude in the right place and be very methodical about how you approach the track (and your progression as a driver).
This tends to be more difficult than it sounds because it can be a big hit to your ego when you're slowly coming up to speed in your fast car and you get rolled by a 100 hp shitbox (E30, CRX, Miata, etc.). It takes a mature attitude to not care about that.
Even if your ego is not a problem, a small mistake is going to be magnified with a faster car. A lapse of attention or a bad habit could seriously ruin your day. In a slower car you'd have more time to gather it up and if you should exit the racing surface you're not going to be going as fast into that tire wall.
All that said it can be done, and plenty of people do it. Its just that having the benefit of hindsight most people would agree that its easier to start with a slower ride then move up. Either way step 1 is to get a good deal of autocrossing seat time before you head out to track.
Gradually as I improved, I'd want something that I could grow into, not grow out of. That's the direction I approach it at. I'd never push my car to its limits until I improved technically.
The only thing I can compare it to is when I bought my first snowboard in like 7th grade. I didn't buy a shitpiece from Walmart, I bought a decent, midrange fast short board. This helped me as a person learn faster because it didn't suck, and several years later I was ripping so hard that I preferred riding with skiier friends instead of other boarders because they were too slow
And sure, I ate it plenty of times, but I would have eaten it on a shitty board too. Either way if I broke it, I'd fix it or buy a new one. You've gotta pay to play~
- .RJ - 08-29-2005
WRXtranceformed Wrote:Gradually as I improved, I'd want something that I could grow into, not grow out of. That's the direction I approach it at. I'd never push my car to its limits until I improved technically.
Just because the car has more HP doesnt mean it has more room to "grow into". If anything, the low HP momentum car has more room to grow as a driver.
- WRXtranceformed - 08-29-2005
.RJ Wrote:With the amount of money you've dumped into your WRX you could have bought a nice, fun, reliable track car (think integra, miata, se-r, e30, etc) if you wanted to go that route - just for reference point. You will also have a lot more fun starting in a lower hp car and learning how to manage momentum and concentrating on driving, rather than dealing with a high HP car where the only thing you're managing is surviving the session without getting in over your head, and worrying about the brakes/engine.I feel like I've gone over this argument with you guys a few times already hah. And again, no offense, but I would not enjoy buying a shitbox and tracking it. It's just not what I'm into. Yes, I'd be fine with these shitboxes "rolling" me at the track with seasoned racers behind the wheels. Read my last post and maybe you'll understand what my mentality is on investing in a car I own.
I also don't approach a new challenge like that negatively, aka "surviving the session." If my car makes it to the track, which again only time is going to permit heh, I'll upgrade the brake pads for comfort's sake and push it to how hard I feel comfortable. I'd rather learn how to road race in my own car that I enjoy than another shitpiece that I bought just so I could learn how to track my other car which I would never otherwise track. I'm 100% sure I'd go at it with a positive, safe attitude because that's how I learn anything I do. From work to pleasure.
- WRXtranceformed - 08-29-2005
.RJ Wrote:Either way, you're going to learn as a driver. You're just playing a semantic game RJ. =pWRXtranceformed Wrote:Gradually as I improved, I'd want something that I could grow into, not grow out of. That's the direction I approach it at. I'd never push my car to its limits until I improved technically.
Just because the car has more HP doesnt mean it has more room to "grow into". If anything, the low HP momentum car has more room to grow as a driver.
Don't get me wrong, I totally understand where you're coming from. Driving a slower car can help you focus on the little things. Alas, I have no desire to drive a car like that. I'd rather focus on those things in my own car, regardless of how hard it is with the mind-clouding force of 350+ crank horsepower. :roll:
- .RJ - 08-29-2005
WRXtranceformed Wrote:And again, no offense, but I would not enjoy buying a shitbox and tracking it. It's just not what I'm into.
Well the first thing you need to do before you hit the racetrack is drop the ego and or image thing about a "shitbox".
Quote:Read my last post and maybe you'll understand what my mentality is on investing in a car I own.
Invest in your skills as a driver, not the car. That will carry you much further in learning how to be a better driver - trust me, the car will not carry you very far at all.
Quote:I also don't approach a new challenge like that negatively, aka "surviving the session."
You havent been on a racetrack in a 300+ hp car before then.
Quote: I'd rather learn how to road race in my own car that I enjoy than another shitpiece that I bought just so I could learn how to track my other car which I would never otherwise track
I dont know why you are so hung up on the idea that a low hp car is a shitbox. Just because its not all blingy with 300hp doesnt mean its a shitty car. You can still find a well maintained, clean, nice looking miata/integra/240/whatever to take to the track and play with. No matter how safe you are going to try to take things all bets are off when you hit the track. Other drivers, rain, fluids on the track, deer, anything can cause you to have a really bad day on the track. I had a student in a porsche 996 who was not pushing the car at all, and got caught up by just a touch of lift throttle oversteer and tank slapped himself off the track - fortunately this was Turn 5 at roebling road, but if it had been Turn 10 at summit he would have stuffed it into the pit wall. Shit happens, and with more power and as a novice with little experience it often happens too quickly to react to. If you cant write it off and walk away from it, it doesnt belong on a racetrack.
- .RJ - 08-29-2005
WRXtranceformed Wrote:Either way, you're going to learn as a driver. You're just playing a semantic game RJ. =p
No, i'm not playing a semantics game, i'm being completely and bluntly honest. High HP and AWD hides a lot of mistakes and you arent growing much as a driver because of this. It becomes a crutch.
- WRXtranceformed - 08-29-2005
I don't like those cars, how hard is that to understand? Heh.
- .RJ - 08-29-2005
WRXtranceformed Wrote:I don't like those cars, how hard is that to understand? Heh.
Ok, I'll bite.
What dont you like about them?
- G.Irish - 08-29-2005
Snowboards and cars aren't quite the same because a higher quality snowboard is not going to take you off the jump 30 mph faster. But I agree with you, you've definitely got to be driving something you enjoy and want to drive.
When I bought the GS-R I definitely considered the fact that it was fast and fun enough that I could grow into it. I could have gotten into something a bit faster like a FD or slower like a Miata but the GS-R was just right for me.
But yeah, RJ is partially saying what he's saying because he has a chronic problem with red mist. If you don't have that problem you'll do better. I think you'll probably be fine with your WRX. But again, get that autocrossing time.
- WRXtranceformed - 08-29-2005
I'm not going to give it up this time btw! Only sleepytime will stop the postcount. I need to whore some up anyhow, I've been intarweb slacking lately.
AWD and high horsepower are characteristics of the car I drive. I'd learn how to exploit these on the track. Why buy another FWD or RWD low horsepower car, that I wouldn't enjoy driving because I'm not into those cars, just so I can find out what it's like to drive one and learn how to drive one?
It would MAYBE be more of a consideration to me if I purchased something in the next few years, such as a Supra or Corvette, that is RWD that I wanted to track. I could understand then starting from square-oneish with a lower horsepower RWD car.
It's nothing egotistical at all, I just dislike those cars. I would dislike driving them.
- .RJ - 08-29-2005
WRXtranceformed Wrote:AWD and high horsepower are characteristics of the car I drive. Why buy another FWD or RWD low horsepower car, that I wouldn't enjoy driving because I'm not into those cars, just so I can find out what it's like to drive one and learn how to drive one?
If you think you cant have fun on track with something other than a high HP AWD car then you're smoking some pretty good crack, and its pretty obvious that you havent had a ride around a track "at speed" with an instructor. If you did, you'd think otherwise. Besides, you've had what, 1 AWD car?
I'm done, I dont think I can help you here. I did try.
- WRXtranceformed - 08-29-2005
G.Irish Wrote:Snowboards and cars aren't quite the same because a higher quality snowboard is not going to take you off the jump 30 mph faster. But I agree with you, you've definitely got to be driving something you enjoy and want to drive.
When I bought the GS-R I definitely considered the fact that it was fast and fun enough that I could grow into it. I could have gotten into something a bit faster like a FD or slower like a Miata but the GS-R was just right for me.
But yeah, RJ is partially saying what he's saying because he has a chronic problem with red mist. If you don't have that problem you'll do better. I think you'll probably be fine with your WRX. But again, get that autocrossing time.
Yeah, that was kind of a weak analogy. What's this red mist you speak of?
RJ: I don't know, they just don't light the fire like Subarus and a few other musclish-type cars do. The aesthetics don't do it for me, the lack of traction doesn't do it for me, and honestly I'm generally not into any car older than 2000, aside from a few obvious classics. If I still have this car when the lease runs out and haven't bought something else, I'll sell it just out of principle. I'm assholish like that 8)
- WRXtranceformed - 08-29-2005
.RJ Wrote:I don't think I've gotten through either =/WRXtranceformed Wrote:AWD and high horsepower are characteristics of the car I drive. Why buy another FWD or RWD low horsepower car, that I wouldn't enjoy driving because I'm not into those cars, just so I can find out what it's like to drive one and learn how to drive one?
If you think you cant have fun on track with something other than a high HP AWD car then you're smoking some pretty good crack, and its pretty obvious that you havent had a ride around a track "at speed" with an instructor. If you did, you'd think otherwise. Besides, you've had what, 1 AWD car?
I'm done, I dont think I can help you here. I did try.
G got it; going fast is great! I like that! But I'd rather do it in a car that I enjoy all-around, not just because it can be pushed fast at the track. Is that clear enough or should I try again?
Oh, every one of my vehicles has been AWD, aside from the pooparu which I drove for 6 months =p Even the car that I learned stick on and practiced driving on my learner's permit was an AWD Subaru Legacy.
- .RJ - 08-29-2005
WRXtranceformed Wrote:they just don't light the fire like Subarus and a few other musclish-type cars do. The aesthetics don't do it for me, the lack of traction doesn't do it for me, and honestly I'm generally not into any car older than 2000
Read that back to yourself out loud and think about how egotistical it sounds......
If you dont want to track your car, thats fine too, but a track car is a tool, a means to an end, not a image contest in the paddock.
- WRXtranceformed - 08-30-2005
Not liking how a car looks or the overall styling because of its age is egotistical?
K!
- G.Irish - 08-30-2005
WRXtranceformed Wrote:Yeah, that was kind of a weak analogy. What's this red mist you speak of?
"Red mist" is when a driver gets so caught up in the adrenaline and testoterone of going fast and/or chasing someone down that target fixation, overdriving, and recklessness are the result. This obviously leads to crashes (Exhibit A: RJ).
WRXtranceformed Wrote:AWD and high horsepower are characteristics of the car I drive. I'd learn how to exploit these on the track. Why buy another FWD or RWD low horsepower car, that I wouldn't enjoy driving because I'm not into those cars, just so I can find out what it's like to drive one and learn how to drive one?
On this question, the reason you'd get a slower car because it is easier to learn on the slower vehicle. There are fundamentals of car control, maintaining momentum and "the line" that you'll have to learn before you start working on taking advantage of the extra traction of AWD. With high horsepower you can get away with not carrying as much corner speed because you can make up for it with power. When you don't have as much power if you screw up a corner there ain't no making up the speed.
If you want to go fast in a slower car you have to get all of the techniques right. With a fast car you can still be doing a lot of things wrong and go at a pretty good clip.
Can you still learn on the higher horsepower AWD car? Sure. Will you learn as much as quickly? Maybe. Would it be easier to start with something slower? Definitely. Would that be right for you? You be the judge.