Title Jumping. Probably not going to do that any more.

[BLINGMW]

Just to share/educate, maybe to prevent others from getting caught in a similar situation, but it seems pretty relevant for this bunch:

Title Jumping. Person A sells a car to person B. A signs the title off but leaves it open. B doesn't fill out his info at the time. B fixes the car up, decides he doesn't want it, whatever, sells it to C. C registers it and it appears he bought it from A. No harm done and B didn't have to pay stupid sales tax on it. Sweet! :thumbup:

I've been A, B, and C in various transactions over the years, never had a problem. Never gave it much thought, didn't really know the law on this. But, just so we all know now:

VA § 46.2-628. How certificate of title transferred.

The owner of a motor vehicle, trailer, or semitrailer registered under this chapter, when transferring or assigning his title or interest thereto, shall fully and correctly endorse the assignment and warranty of title on the certificate of title of the motor vehicle, trailer, or semitrailer to its purchaser, with a statement of all security interests on it, and shall deliver the certificate to the purchaser or transferee at the time of delivering the motor vehicle, trailer, or semitrailer. Any owner who willfully fails fully and correctly to endorse the assignment and warranty of title shall be guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor.

At least this is the relevant law we could find. $500 max fine. I looked into this because a friend of mine got in a sticky situation, as person B, when the car blew up on C, they got pissed, and want to get him in trouble. And really, maybe they all committed a crime here, but he's pretty understandably nervous about it.

The lesson here is, I think, as A or B, you really expose yourself if the buyer turns out to be a dick, or is just an idiot. After looking into it, though I'm a big fan of ignoring and breaking stupid laws, I've decided to avoid this situation in the future now that I know how sour it can turn and how actually illegal it is.

Who else thinks car titles should expire after 10 years or under some certain value? I mean, I can go buy a $2000 TV and sell it, or buy a used one, whatever. But a $2000 car? Oh, the government needs a piece of that and you end up committing crimes while attempting to comply or ignoring all the laws that dictate the transfer. Who even cares about the title on an old car? It's just a hassle. I for one would rather not have this "service" of the government, thank you very much.

[Ryan T]

I don't really agree with the title expiring or not being required after 10 years/certain value. You'd have no way to prove that the vehicle was in fact yours. How would you go about registering the vehicle with a title? I think a lot of it has to do with law enforcement. If they know you own a certain vehicle and you've commited a few crimes they know what to look out for, what your license plate is, etc. You can commit a lot of crimes with a $2,000 car...not so many with a $2,000 TV.

[CaptainHenreh]

How has everyone not heard this story? I was charged with a pair of class three misdemeanor under this title section, as part of the Great Plague O' Nine Tickets.

Also, don't slap plates on a car that aren't registered to that car. You'll get caught for that too.

[Apoc]

RJ's done a lot of title-wrangling and never had an issue. Me? I'm far too obsessive about legal and financial consequences to even entertain the idea. I've walked away from more than one purchase because the seller didn't bother to retitle in his name.

[BLINGMW]

You can commit a lot of crimes with a $2,000 car...not so many with a $2,000 TV.

I can commit a lot of crimes with a $2000 gun too. It doesn't have a title, nor, at least in this state, does it need to be registered. :dunno: And a car's a lot harder to lose or hide. OMG how do we manage to sell, transfer, and claim ownership on such a thing without the government's "help"?

How has everyone not heard this story? I was charged with a pair of class three misdemeanor under this title section, as part of the Great Plague O' Nine Tickets.

Also, don't slap plates on a car that aren't registered to that car. You'll get caught for that too.

Heh, I hadn't heard that. I figured it had to have come up for others in this club! You got out of it? Do tell.
Um yeah, the plates, I've never NOT done that when driving a "new" purchase home. :lol:

[.RJ]

RJ's done a lot of title-wrangling and never had an issue.

Its part of the nature of some of the stuff I've bought & sold and I'm aware of the risks so it could have certainly come up. I guess I've been lucky there. One thing I would do in the future if this comes up again is go through a title service and claim there was no title for it. Or if you're "B" in the scenario, only take cash for the car/moto, dont let them know where you live and claim ignorance of the matter.

[JohnC]

I'm about to be person B in this situation, with a motorcycle that has a title, but has only been used as a track bike by myself and the previous owner. Honestly though, I'm not going to lose much sleep.

[BLINGMW]

Or if you're "B" in the scenario, only take cash for the car/moto, dont let them know where you live and claim ignorance of the matter.

yeah, that's about all we could come up with. I guess I wouldn't mind being C, and if B, make sure there's no paper trail, but as A? Sounds like I never want to be A for sure.

[.RJ]

If you're A, you presumably have the $$$ for it, you sign the title over, report it sold to the DMV and send in the plates. Not much else you can do to CYA there.

Really the last one in the chain is the worst one to be in. You could have a vehicle you cant title or use.

[Kaan]

If you're A, you presumably have the $$$ for it, you sign the title over, report it sold to the DMV and send in the plates. Not much else you can do to CYA there.

Really the last one in the chain is the worst one to be in. You could have a vehicle you cant title or use.

last man with the title is the odd man out... or could be.

i'm pretty sure we have all done it. but most of us know if we are person A or B to CYA

[BLINGMW]

If you're A, you presumably have the $$$ for it, you sign the title over, report it sold to the DMV and send in the plates. Not much else you can do to CYA there.

Well, other than insist that the buyer sign and fill it out in front of you. I think the law states you're supposed to do that. If you let it go open, then you're breaking the law too. I think. :dunno:

[Apoc]

If you're A, you presumably have the $$$ for it, you sign the title over, report it sold to the DMV and send in the plates. Not much else you can do to CYA there.

Well, other than insist that the buyer sign and fill it out in front of you. I think the law states you're supposed to do that. If you let it go open, then you're breaking the law too. I think. :dunno:

I have them fill it out before I sign it... I want to know what I'm putting my signature on.

I also have an original copy Bill of Sale with the seller's signature in case something happens after they drive off.

[Mike]

did this once.
almost came back to bite me.
not worth the trouble.

fuck cars.

[ScottyB]

I also have an original copy Bill of Sale with the seller's signature in case something happens after they drive off.

i've always understood this was pretty good form in a buy/sell arrangement as long as it outlines the transaction and provides for the whole "sold as is" thing. maybe it doesn't really hold much water on it's own but i think that along with a signed title you can rest pretty easy as the seller.

in a society where you can be sued for someone dumping hot coffee on themselves, i like having a paper trail, even if it's a PITA.

[Apoc]

i've always understood this was pretty good form in a buy/sell arrangement as long as it outlines the transaction and provides for the whole "sold as is" thing. maybe it doesn't really hold much water on it's own but i think that along with a signed title you can rest pretty easy as the seller.

I include in specific language that "no warranty is expressed or implied."

I've heard way too many stories of people trying to squeeze money out of sellers because of buyer's remorse. I think everyone here has been able to tell buyers to go eff themselves, but it only takes one asshole with a lawsuit to make your life hell.

[Evan]

How has everyone not heard this story? I was charged with a pair of class three misdemeanor under this title section, as part of the Great Plague O' Nine Tickets.

Also, don't slap plates on a car that aren't registered to that car. You'll get caught for that too.

do tell. sounds like a super happy fun lighthearted story

[Kaan]

i've always understood this was pretty good form in a buy/sell arrangement as long as it outlines the transaction and provides for the whole "sold as is" thing. maybe it doesn't really hold much water on it's own but i think that along with a signed title you can rest pretty easy as the seller.

I include in specific language that "no warranty is expressed or implied."

I've heard way too many stories of people trying to squeeze money out of sellers because of buyer's remorse. I think everyone here has been able to tell buyers to go eff themselves, but it only takes one asshole with a lawsuit to make your life hell.

lol rex has the story on the Focus too... someone wanted some warranty work

[JustinG]

does anyone have a copy of a seller/buyers agreement they like to use. Since hopefully my car will be gone soon im looking into this wort of thing.

[Apoc]

Just change the nouns from motorcycle to car and tweak as necessary.

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[JustinG]

thanks