Rethinking the metal to metal incident policy on track?

[BLINGMW]

I had a great trackday at VIR yesterday. HOWEVER, my friend's friend who was new to the sport and was taking the school did not. 3rd session out, he got punted by another school newbie and his '08 GSXR is potentially totaled, at the least a few thousand in damage and he gets to pay for repairs to the rental leathers too. Fortunately they were both ok.

It's certianly not a rare thing, Chad getting his mustang flipped by a competitor a few years ago comes to mind as another good close to home example (and a much more expensive one). It's probably happening at just about every race weekend, someone gets his machine damaged by a competitor.

As I was thinking about it on the way home.... ok, for race groups, fine, I get it. Too much going on, contact is all to common, I understand. But for school groups. I'm not so sure that in the situation when someone is clearly at fault, that they shouldn't have to face SOME of the monetary hardship. I mean, if they do something boneheaded or malicious, sure, they might get kicked out. But they also get to walk away from $50000 in damage to another person's car (just for example) and maybe some even more expensive injuries?

The few problems I came up with:
1) Most people's equipment when on track is not insured. So If I total a Ferrari with the nose of my E30, I'm not going to be ABLE to pay for it. And really, I didn't make the choice to bring a Ferrari out there, the other guy shares in the responsibility for that decision somewhat.

2) Since it's private property, not a roadway, and no crime has been committed, I'm not sure there'd ever be any legal obligation to pay for damages even if all the track officials and others on track were in agreement that so and so was at fault.

So even if the rule was changed to say, hey, you have to help the guy out SOME if you punt him, the offender could just refuse and at worst not run with that club again. Maybe the other guy could sue him... though I don't know how that sort of thing would go, and I certianly wouldn't want to go there.

Would it be unreasonable, for school groups, to have at least some required payment from the punter to the puntee? $500? $1000? Maybe more as a good faith sort of thing, but not too much to make it so the punter just bails? Enough though to be worth mentioning in the classroom so drivers can have a $$ value associated with driving unnecessarily close to others? Honestly I'm not saying it's a "good" idea.... just an idea. The current system just seems a little wrong for school groups where metal to metal should really be unacceptable. Maybe having SOME penalty would potentially reduce incidents while helping out those who were wronged just a little.

[G.Irish]

Well right off the bat the major problem with bike schools is that the instruction is either non-existent to woefully inadequate at best. It is almost criminal that people get let out on track with a bunch of rockets that can do 10 second quarter miles with no guidance at all.

Looking at car track days, every now and then contact happens in a school group but it's pretty rare. I can only think of one or two incidents in all of the years I've been involved in it. I think a lot of that has to do with instruction, the fact that there's an instructor in the car, and of course the fact that it's a lot easier to regain control of a car than it is with a bike.

At any rate, it is rather unfair that someone can incur thousands of dollars in damage because of someone else's boneheaded-ness. Maybe have people sign a legally binding commitment to paying for some portion of someone else's crash expenses if you do something stupid and hit them would work. Obviously you'd have to have some sort of cap rather than a percentage. If you took out a guy on a Desmo you could be looking at well over $10k in damages.

Or, as you said, you could sue the offender. I think if someone was clearly negligent you'd have a good chance of winning. It could have a huge chilling effect on track days, but on ther other hand maybe you'd never have people trying banzai moves to win the track day.

[.RJ]

If you start allowing financial compensation for bonehead moves on track, it opens up a huge can of worms.

SHOULD the other guy help him out? Maybe, its tough to say. But its almost never discussed by trackday organizers - this type of stuff is just not actively discouraged - they should be doing everything they can to help riders keep their stuff in one piece, or else they wont be coming back for the rest of the year with a busted ass bike.

At the least, if you take someone out then your day, or weekend, should be over. Or you should beat his ass and f his wife :lol:

[NTIman]

My opinion is that no one is forcing you to go on track, if you can't afford to total your car, don't go on track. I would be pissed if my car got totaled, and I can't afford to lose it, so I don't go on track.

I raced in a 4 cylinder class at a dirt track. It cost me $500ish to build my car. I wouldn't have minded much if i got spun into the wall and ended up with a pile of metal.

Accidents happen in motorsports. Besides, what you think was a boneheaded move could have just been a complete accident, and how do you decide what was just something that happened, as opposed to something that the other driver could have controled. What if a car spins out and another car hits it? Who is the bonehead in that situation? Who should pay for damages incurred? Why should driver (A) who spun out by himself pay for driver (B)'s car? Why should driver (B) take responsibility when he just got caught in someone elses mistake?

[Mike]

"stupid" is too arbitrary.

everybody is out there voluntarily. if you can't live with someone totaling your vehicle and not compensating you for it, you shouldn't be out there. if my brakes fail and i total your ferrari, i cannot afford to help you out, sorry... that's why i'm out here in an expendable 16 year old econobox. you're the "stupid" one IMO...

[Ole]

It is unfortunate when someone else's mistake causes you to have to pay to fix your car. However, racing is not a "poor man's" sport. If you cannot afford to total your car, you have no business being out on the track.

That being said, I did write a check to a fellow racer when my error caused him to need a LF fender and Dr door. I did not do this because he asked, I insisted on doing it because that's the way I roll. I was taken out by a driver in '06 and after we discussed what happened he offerred me a new fender. I accepted it but did not expect it. I did not start racing until I could afford to replace the entire car several times over if necessary.

[CaptainHenreh]

I'm with stupid.

People are always asking me why I don't do HPDE in the Speed3. It's simple: I can't walk away from it. And it wouldn't even necessarily be my fault, but I can't expect someone else to be on the hook for my shit when I set foot on a closed course.

I feel sorry for your friend's friend and his now totally trashed GSXR, but you can't not know the risk when you go out there. Accidents happen. Hell, stupidity happens. If you can't deal with the consequences, you probably ought not be on track.

Oh, and what G said too. IMHO, if you didn't spend an entire weekend in class before hitting a hot track on one of those deathrockets, you didn't get enough instruction.

[Apoc]

I was taken out by a driver in '06 and after we discussed what happened he offerred me a new fender. I accepted it but did not expect it.

I think that sums it up. If you cause the damage, the gentlemen thing to do is to offer to pay for it. I don't think you can mandate this, especially for those for-profit organizations that are trying to lure those who race on a shoestring budget.

[Mike]

I was taken out by a driver in '06 and after we discussed what happened he offerred me a new fender. I accepted it but did not expect it.

I think that sums it up. If you cause the damage, the gentlemen thing to do is to offer to pay for it. I don't think you can mandate this, especially for those for-profit organizations that are trying to lure those who race on a shoestring budget.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. If it's my fault and it's something I can afford, I'm going to offer it. A fender on a track Miata? Sure. A fender on your Mercedes that is going to need paint matching? Dream on... I'll buy you the part maybe.

[Kaan]

part of being on track is knowing not only will you make a mistake one day... but that someone else will make one around you.

dont track a '08 GSXR if you cant afford for it to hit the ground... no who caused it to hit the ground.

[BLINGMW]

Well right off the bat the major problem with bike schools is that the instruction is either non-existent to woefully inadequate at best. It is almost criminal that people get let out on track with a bunch of rockets that can do 10 second quarter miles with no guidance at all.

yes, G and I have talked about this before, and I wish that were different too. I guess we have to start our own school.... I just wonder if this would help as well.

Accidents happen in motorsports. Besides, what you think was a boneheaded move could have just been a complete accident, and how do you decide what was just something that happened, as opposed to something that the other driver could have controled.

Well I'm speaking about complete accidents, I mean, I don't think any there was any intent! And yes, there's a LOT of gray area. But in the clear case of someone rear ending another vehicle that before was not out of control, it just doesn't seem right. There was no reason to be that close in a school situation.

if my brakes fail and i total your ferrari....

mechanical failure does complicate things.... and even in a "clear" case like I'm suggesting, all the punter would have to do is claim brake failure.

I'm glad to see that there are others who feel some gentleman's offer of a fender or help finding parts is appropriate. I feel the same way too. I wouldn't just be able to wreck someone's shit and walk away feeling no guilt. I guess what I'm asking is if there's some reasonable way to "require" at least some bare minimum of assistance/money. So far it sounds like there isn't!

[G.Irish]

I think a distinction needs to be made between 'racing' and 'track days'. In racing crashes are inevitable when someone is going for it. There is standard for what is a reasonable and unreasonable move but even then, crashes are a part of the game.

For car track days there is a passing system that is designed to prevent people from making poor judgment passes that result in crashes. And I think by and large it works. Like I said, I've only heard of one car-on-car wreck in HPDE for sure.

With bikes I think the real problem is simply that instruction is ridiculous inadequate, which is why there is a problem with crashes and occasional contact. If that problem gets solved then you probably wouldn't need to get into paying for wrecking other people because it would be a freak occurrence.

I think the problem when you get into paying for wrecking other people's bikes is that the next step is lawsuits. And once litigation enters the picture the whole track day deal could get killed for everybody.

[ViPER1313]

My personal opinion is that accidents happen and sometimes people hit each other on track, even in driving schools and HPDEs. Sometimes it happens because someone is trying to win an HPDE and taking chances they shouldn't, sometimes it happens due to mechanical failures, more often than not it happens due to a momentary lapse of good judgment by someone trying to be safe and have some fun at the same time. For any given situation, I don't feel that people should be held responsible for damage caused to other people's vehicles. If you owe money on or can't afford to lose the car you track, either don't track it or pay the couple hundred dollars necessary to insure it for the weekend.

If someone punts me and feels guilty that they totaled my 1990 Eagle Talon and wants to help me pay to replace it, good for them, but I don't expect or rely on them to do anything. On the same note, I cant afford to replace a new Skyline that someone wants to bring to an HPDE. If I were involved in an accident with one, the owner will get my apologies and condolences, not an offer to give him/her my life savings.

I really think it should be mandatory that every driver waive his or her right to litigate against other drivers on track baring malicious intent (pulling a GT3 style punt, tampering with the other drivers car) before being allowed to go out.

[Maengelito]

I think a distinction needs to be made between 'racing' and 'track days'.

+1, if we're talking about racing, then shit happens. If we're talking about track days, contact shouldnt happen. Problem is that contact does happen, even though its pretty rare. If someone takes me out during a DE event, I'm gonna be pissed but I'm not really expecting them to take care of any of the expenses (unless as pointed out before, it was intentional, in which case that guy shouldn't really be out there in the first place).

I think a big part of being a good driver (whether its racing or just DEs or even on the street) is having situational awareness. Now you can't account for every situation but I try to assess whats going on ahead and behind me and put myself in a situation to minimize any risks. For example if I'm coming up on someone slower, I'll try to put myself in a position to pass them in the next safest area of track (usually a straightaway). Sometimes that involves slowing yourself in certain sections of track just to time it so you can get a really good run on them coming out of turns and onto the straight. Thats one specific example and like I said, you can't account for all situations but minimizing your risks will help you avoid such accidents.

[NTIman]

I can see the difference between schools and racing, and I would probably offer some money or assistance if i did something stupid and ruined someones day. I think that goes along with the sportsmanship of racing, which is totally different than other sports. It just seems like you'd need someone to look at each individual case to determine who was at fault, and with all of the factors/variables, you'd probably end up running more people off than you would help out.

[Apoc]

if we're talking about racing, then shit happens. If we're talking about track days, contact shouldnt happen.

That's where I disagree. Contact shouldn't happen anywhere...

Just because it's "racing" doesn't give people license to be jackasses or explain away contact. Part of the passing rules in Cup are designed to eliminate ALL contact because people really can't afford to keep repairing their cars.

I honestly don't think there should any mentality difference in the two. Maybe that's why I've never been found at fault for an incident (or won a race) in 7 years of racing.

[Kaan]

I honestly don't think there should any mentality difference in the two. Maybe that's why I've never been found at fault for an incident (or won a race) in 7 years of racing.

right, but still in 7 years you've had bent metal right? because it happens. and no matter how it happens... you shouldnt really be out there unless you can take the loss ... right?

[Apoc]

right, but still in 7 years you've had bent metal right? because it happens. and no matter how it happens... you shouldnt really be out there unless you can take the loss ... right?

Correct... but I also shouldn't be out there if I can't make up for a mistake that punished someone else... and that's my point. If people raced/drove as if there were real consequences, (read: you paid for their car too [voluntarily]) there would be less "accidents".

[Maengelito]

if we're talking about racing, then shit happens. If we're talking about track days, contact shouldnt happen.

That's where I disagree. Contact shouldn't happen anywhere...

Just because it's "racing" doesn't give people license to be jackasses or explain away contact. Part of the passing rules in Cup are designed to eliminate ALL contact because people really can't afford to keep repairing their cars.

I'd agree that it shouldn't happen but it does much more frequently than in schools. Bump drafting and small nudges from what I understand are tolerated and maybe to an extent even encouraged depending on the people involved in w2w, right? Obviously, I'm not the one to ask since I've never tried. In competition, there is a winner and everyone is trying to do what it takes to be that guy. Thats going to result in aggressive behavior which sometimes results in stupid mistakes. In schools, there is no single winner, just losers if something stupid happens. Everyone is theoretically going at their own pace no matter who else is in the group.

[Sijray21]

did the other guy admit fault? what if your friend's friend hit the brakes too early and disrupted the braking of the turn for everyone behind him? not saying he did, but just throwing some differing opinions out there.

i definitely agree that it sucks he has to fix his '08 GSXR, but keeping a safe distance is something that should be noticed or be brought to the attention of the control riders. perhaps something that could help with bike days is if a brake light were to be required instead of being required that it be not present? it's definitely more difficult with bikes as said before and i completely agree regarding the gentlemen thing to do if you know you caused the accident (but again, i wouldn't expect it).