running water injection? Once I get some more cash, and some part numbers, who's down for some beautiful home-made kits?
-T
MIHS - hot cause we fly you ain't so you not
2004 Subaru WRX STi
1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
1998 Oldsmobile Cutlass
My E30 has water injection! All I had to do was crack the block!
Friend of mine put together a water injection kit on his Evo.
Let me know if you want his email address - i've seen what he did and it looks very, very nice, he may be able to put something together for you. It wasnt particularly cheap, but its very solid and wont break.
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
water spray... water injection?
Because corky bell hates it.
Also, water doesn't make power, and if you add water to your charge, you have to take away some of the oxygen, which causes an over-all loss of power.
Corky Bell says that in any well-designed turbo system, a water-injection device is superflous and stupid.
That being said, I think it's a wonderful idea, have quite a few designs for such kits, and absolutely intend to add one to the KA-T.
Travis, you ought to message me so we can compare notes sometime. What do you think about Water/Ethanol?
1987 Oldsmobile Cutlass 442
I've always been curious, with water injection, is there a risk of injecting too much and blowing it all up, ie, the deadly hydrolock Kaan knows so much about? Or are the injectors used far too small? I would just be super nervous about intentionally putting water into a cylinder when it's normally a very bad thing (to us NA guys).
Its far enough away from the cylinder and a fine enough mist that its not an issue.
It vaporizes by the time it gets there.
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
Rj, thanks for the contact but I know several people myself using it from full blown aquamist kits to homebuilds with shureflo pumps and various other components. They are the people who I need to get the exact part numbers from...and I think vfaq.com (dsm technical site) has a writeup with even more part numbers to use.
Quote:Travis, you ought to message me so we can compare notes sometime. What do you think about Water/Ethanol?
Alchohol almost has to be used with water, 50/50 by weight not volume. This prevents the water from being frozen and helps cause it has a high octane value itself.
Quote:Corky Bell says that in any well-designed turbo system, a water-injection device is superflous and stupid.
Corky bell needs to get his or her head straight. Air to air intercoolers are awesome...but more expensive and in my opinion not as cool as high octane and a little water/alcohol.
-T
MIHS - hot cause we fly you ain't so you not
2004 Subaru WRX STi
1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
1998 Oldsmobile Cutlass
Good luck putting it together - post pics when you start getting the parts 
The guy I know thats done this is considering putting the parts together and selling them as a kit - he's gone through a bit of trial and error sorting out the bugs.
The problem with the homebrew kits is that they will often use inadequate parts.
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
KPWSerpiente Wrote:Corky bell needs to get his or her head straight. Air to air intercoolers are awesome...but more expensive and in my opinion not as cool as high octane and a little water/alcohol.
-T
I can't believe you're modifying a turbocharged car and you've never heard of Corky Bell.
Anyway, I have mixed feelings on adding the alcohol. Sure, in the wintertime, it might be optimal, but adding additional high-octane fuel without engine tuning would make you run over-rich.
1987 Oldsmobile Cutlass 442
Quote:additional high-octane fuel without engine tuning would make you run over-rich.
I would suggest some tuning then. This is not a problem for me because I do this myself anytime I want while in the car, but I also can't believe you would run overly rich just from a little bit of alcohol being mixed in.
And Corky Bell is an engineer/author. I have never read any of his books so I don't know what he has to say about water injection, but his effeminate name is what led me to that joke. I don't know why he would disagree with a water injection sytem.
When your octane value is high enough, an intercooler becomes unnecessary. Similarly, if your cooling is cool enough, very high octane gas would not be needed. Water/alcohol injection does both -> it cools the charge because of it's high heat latency and the alcohol provides a little bit of octane.
A very solid kit will run half the cost of a very good intercooling kit for most cars (500$ as opposed to 1,000$). It it also (I imagine) a lot easier to install. Adjusting it however is a little harder when you consider the fact that just throwing a big/efficient intercooler will achieve your goal just by being on the car.
When I'm talking about intercoolers I'm talking air/air. Water/air are kind of complex and I would never use one on my car.
-T
MIHS - hot cause we fly you ain't so you not
2004 Subaru WRX STi
1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
1998 Oldsmobile Cutlass
I cant see how not using an intercooler is beneficial w/ high octane gas - enlighten me? Cooler intake charge is always better, no?
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
I didn't say it wasn't benificial, I said it wasn't needed. Generally on a n/a car a cold air or ram air, or some kind of crazy intake, set up is in place to help colder and denser into the engine. Obviously more oxygen per volume of air is going to produce more power.
In a turbo car you don't need to worry about crazy intake stuff to help the air be denser, it already is because of the compressor wheel of the turbo, but one of the byproducts of the compressing process is that the air becomes extremely hot. Very dense hot air entering the engine is a bad thing unless you like detonation.
Now, a higher octane gasoline such as cam2 or c16 will be stabler and not as likely to predetonate with the hot hot air coming in. I run 25psi on the kind of sidemount that any self respecting bling master would laugh at...but I also run 117 octane gas and can get away with it with great timing advance.
An intercooler is still extremely useful, especially in a high boost situation, the lower temperature charge air will help prevent detonation. Couple that with high octane and you can't lose, unless you lean it out and melt something.
I'm not corky bell, but to me running very high octane is much more important than a solid intercooling system...it will supress knock much better when you are on the drag strip.
Now for every day driving around, when the octane gas you use is 91-93 and the boost is still up above 12 psi, an intercooler is needed. You might even need one on the roadcourse where you guys see much higher overall temps than me.
-T
MIHS - hot cause we fly you ain't so you not
2004 Subaru WRX STi
1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
1998 Oldsmobile Cutlass
Why isnt everyone using it? Because everyone doesnt need it. Water injection is a great tool to get more power, or tune for increased reliability. IF your making your desired power level reliably without it, obviously there is no need for it. If it aint broke, don't fix it.
About using an Intercooler v higher octane gas. Using a higher octane gas will basicaly increase the threshold where detonation will occur. An Intercooler will help decrease the conditions that lead up to detonation (heat). Not only will it do that, it will increase power. This is of course because, like you said, it increases density. The cooler air will help the engine run overall cooler water temps as well. Of course a big front mount inercooler often hampers airflow to the radiator.
Quote:Similarly, if your cooling is cool enough, very high octane gas would not be needed.
Are you talking about an engine cooling system (radiater, etc.)? I don't care what cooling system you have, detonation can still easily show its ugly head.
Now a little about water injection. Corky bell.... well, he's wrong. Water Injection is such a great tool. You can tune it to almost bullet proof reliability (netting a loss in hp when tuned this way). It can also be tuned for max hp. Mike Kojima has found up to a net gain of 40 WHP when tuning this way by being able to lean out the mixture and increase timing advance, all without detonation. Here are his experiences with it on the track:
"We tested this road racing at Buttonwillow raceway 2 years ago. It was 100 degrees and this was on a road racing corse where you are on it way longer than any drag race. A stock SE-R will overhaet under these condition.
Monitoring coolant temp closely with Consult the water temp never exceeded 96 degrees C. This is with a stock radiator and no underdrive water pump pulley. A turbo SE-R will explode under these condtions with no water injecton within 5 minutes.
As it was we lapped the whole field and on one lap passed 7 mustangs, vetts, camaros and porshes going down the front straight in front of many witnesses. People were amazed that a 200SX could do this.
Water injection was the only thing that made this posible."
![[Image: chart.GIF]](http://www.aquamist.co.uk/dc/technic/chart.GIF)
You can also see by this graph how much it broadens cylinder head pressure during combustion.
Water injecion is not a band aid as corky bell has said, rather it is a valuable tool for more power, and/or more reliability. Also, look at motorsports today. ALL WRC use aquamist water injection.
Quote:Are you talking about an engine cooling system (radiater, etc.)? I don't care what cooling system you have, detonation can still easily show its ugly head.
No...I meant if the intercooling of the charge air was as 100% efficient reliance on a high octane value and or water injection would not be needed, in most applications.
And yeah...I don't know what Corky bell was thinking when he decided water/alcohol was a crutch.
-T
MIHS - hot cause we fly you ain't so you not
2004 Subaru WRX STi
1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
1998 Oldsmobile Cutlass
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