burning brakes smell, brake fade.. NO BRAKES.. need advise

[BLAIR]

so im finally making decent power in the 240 and the brakes are fried. .. no idea what is on em, probably some autozone cheep crap... rotors are pretty worn but the pads have a lot of life left.. pretty sure i glazed em over. now after one hard stop on em they smoke like a mofo.

now what do you all recomend. i have never experienced brake fade ever and i dont want it to happen again. i need new front brakes

bigger brake kit is out of the option. not enough money and i like my 0 offset wheels. so im looking for an upgrade using stock sized stuff. something like a drilled or slotted rotor, performance pad, and a brake fluid flush and add some superblue.

so whats brands do you all recommend for pads. this is a street car but i drive the hell out of it..and 120 to 0 stops happen more than they should.

also is a drilled or slotted rotor really worth it.. cause they are about 3 times the cost as a stock brembo rotor

NEED SOME ADVISE... thanks guys

[white_2kgt]

also is a drilled or slotted rotor really worth it.. cause they are about 3 times the cost as a stock brembo rotor

Just a heads up, but next time oh, 3 or 4 of us see you, we are going to smack you in the head. Drilled (and/or) Slotted are CRAP.

For a street pad, carbotech bobcat, no hawk, no EBC, its all utter crap compared to a carbotech pad.

[BLAIR]

thanks.. thats just what i was looking for.. any direction of where i could go to get these pads.

and about the drilled-and or slotted thing. i have been hearing that and thats why i have asked.. have always run drilled rotors on my cars without a problem. but i have been hearing they arent needed. and im looking to save money so thats good to hear.

hook me up with more info on why drilled-slotted rotors are CRAP? why does porsche use them? why do most aftermarket brake kits like stoptech come with them?

thanks for the info

[CaptainHenreh]

Q45 brakes.

Although your pad options will be limited. Still, they're really cheap, and will fit anywhere your stock brakes will.

Hell, I faded the 240's brakes with the KA, so I know you're probably cooking them.

[G.Irish]

Well I dunno Chad, it must not be totally crap because a lot of sport bikes have drilled rotors and they have to slow down from much greater speeds than just about any street car. Of course I imagine those rotors are made very differently (read: better) than the aftermarket stuff marketed to the import crowd.

At any rate, the price difference is not worth it so just go for some autozone rotors and either some Carbotech Bobcats or Axxis Ultimates. I really liked my Ultimates but they had 2 downsides:

1. A lot of dust
2. Definitely can't cheat and use them at a track day (unless you take it easy on them)

Both are pretty inexpensive.

[.RJ]

thanks.. thats just what i was looking for.. any direction of where i could go to get these pads.

<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.carbotecheng.com">www.carbotecheng.com</a><!-- w --> - call and ask for Matt, tell him that RJ sent you. They're good people. Bobcat is what you want for the street, along with cheap autozone plain rotors and some superblue.

and about the drilled-and or slotted thing. i have been hearing that and thats why i have asked.. have always run drilled rotors on my cars without a problem. but i have been hearing they arent needed. and im looking to save money so thats good to hear.

hook me up with more info on why drilled-slotted rotors are CRAP? why does porsche use them? why do most aftermarket brake kits like stoptech come with them?

They work fine up to a point, but they are more expensive and they will fail sooner with hard use and/or abuse (i.e. small brakes with lots of power) - the cracks and drilled holes are really good stress risers for cracks to form from.

why does porsche use them? why do most aftermarket brake kits like stoptech come with them?

Porsche uses them for improved wet braking performance - or so their literature says. Stoptech sells them for the bling, but if you read their white papers they say that for track use to stay away from them. You will see enduro or rally cars running with slotted rotors, in long races they can keep the pads from glazing but this comes at the expensive of increased pad wear.

[.RJ]

Well I dunno Chad, it must not be totally crap because a lot of sport bikes have drilled rotors and they have to slow down from much greater speeds than just about any street car.

sport bikes weigh 400 lb - brake rotors are a heat sink, nothing more, nothing less

[BLAIR]

and all my questions are answered in less than like 5 mins hahaha

looks like its carbotech pads, stock rotors, and some superblue fluid

THANKS everyone

[white_2kgt]

Well I dunno Chad, it must not be totally crap because a lot of sport bikes have drilled rotors and they have to slow down from much greater speeds than just about any street car. Of course I imagine those rotors are made very differently (read: better) than the aftermarket stuff marketed to the import crowd.

Sigh, G, have you really been out of performance cars this long?

Bikes are lighter, much lighter so I imagine it works on bikes because they don't need all that surface area and the holes are 'Home Simpson, Speed Holes'.

Here's some further reading for ya,

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=14827">http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showth ... adid=14827</a><!-- m -->

...It is also obvious that a larger rotor will give you a larger brake torque (stopping force). But what about cross drilled or slotted rotors? Well the common belief in the main stream is that somehow slotted or cross-drilled rotors allow for better performance by handling heat. This is 100 percent false. The individuals involved in such fallacies mention that air through the holes works to cool the rotor (convective heat transfer into the air from the rotor). The issue is that from physics we know that metal transfers heat better then air by a significant amount. (The larger mass of the rotor becomes more important then the larger surface area of the rotor in any situation other then the optimal. Cross drilling is not an optimal manner of creating metal to air transfer through larger surface areas. There is not much airflow through the holes.) As such the rotor begins to work as a heat sink. Now by cross drilling or slotting we are decreasing the overall amount of metal to transfer this heat to. Clearly we are decreasing performance of the rotor to dissipate heat amongst itself. We are also damaging the brakes structural rigidity. The iron in a brake rotor is made of a crystalline structure. By drilling holes in said surface we cut the end grains creating a situation that breeds cracks. Furthermore, even if we were to cut the rotors correctly to avoid cutting the end grains structural rigidity is still decreased. The temperature around the holes will be slightly less then that of the entire rotor leading to temperature stress. Moreover, the decreased mass will result in lowered rigidity. Lastly, the holes of a cross-drilled rotor decrease the area of the pad that contacts the rotor. This concentrates the heat more on certain areas of the pad (similar to the idea of using a smaller pad where the pad heats up more quickly).
So what do cross drilled and slotted rotors accomplish? Well cross-drilled does not do anything for a car but perhaps give you a certain bling look. In a motorcycle or other extremely light vehicle the decrease in rotational inertia and unsprung mass might perhaps be useful (once other more efficient avenues are exhausted). However, in a street car or race car the speeds and weight of such vehicles will make the relatively miniscule decrease be outweighed by the need for more heat dissipation.
Slotted rotors meanwhile serve a few purposes. The main original purpose...

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2002">http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showth ... eadid=2002</a><!-- m -->

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.teamscr.com/rotors.htm">http://www.teamscr.com/rotors.htm</a><!-- m -->

Crossdrilling your rotors might look neat, but what is it really doing for you? Well, unless your car is using brake pads from the 40ÔÇÖs and 50ÔÇÖs, not a whole lot. Rotors were first ÔÇÿdrilledÔÇÖ because early brake pad materials gave off gasses when heated to racing temperatures ÔÇô a process known as ÔÇÿgassing outÔÇÖ. These gasses then formed a thin layer between the brake pad face and the rotor, acting as a lubricant and effectively lowering the coefficient of friction. The holes were implemented to give the gasses ÔÇÿsomewhere to goÔÇÖ. It was an effective solution, but todayÔÇÖs friction materials do not exhibit the same gassing out phenomenon as the early pads.

For this reason, the holes have carried over more as a design feature than a performance feature. Contrary to popular belief they donÔÇÖt lower temperatures (in fact, by removing weight from the rotor, the temperatures can actually increase a little), they create stress...

I could go on, and on and on as has been done many other times, on many other boards but people much smarter, but that should suffice.

[white_2kgt]

superblue fluid

Waste of money on a street car. There is NO way you are braking hard enough on the street to require that stuff. I don't even use it ON TRACK and look at the pig I drive.

[.RJ]

I don't even use it ON TRACK and look at the pig I drive.

You have "real" brakes though

I have to use Motul 600 on my car with tiny 10" rotors or else the fluid will go to shit. Using good fluid also affords me the laziness of never bleeding brakes, and only flushing the system once a year.

[Maengelito]

^^^^ what they all said.

the bobcats might be more expensive than the ultimates, but they dust less and carbotech is a smaller company than axxis and i like helping the little guy especially when their product is so nice. another option might be to do what rex said (he may know a thing or two about 2fotees) and swap with Q45 brakes. matt from carbotech said my S14 came with two different brake sizes one of which is much bigger than what i had. you might see if you've got the tiny brakes and upgrade from a higher model. i faded the hell out of my S14 brakes at summit which is why i hated the car. i couldnt stop going into 1 and i couldnt stop coming down the chute to turn 5. when you're hitting the brakes and they go to the floor, thats scary juju.

as for the slot/drilled argument, porsche uses ceramics as opposed to the cast iron rotors most other cars have. they also cast the holes in rotor so the material isnt weakened by the x-drilling. i believe the original purpose of slots/drilled holes was to let gas escape from when brakes used to contain asbestos. now that they no longer do, the different material is much less prone to create pockets of gas between the pad and rotor. besides, as RJ stated, the rotor is a heat sink and you want it to be beefy in order to take all that stress of slowing down a big fat metal pig from 120 mph down to 0.

[BLAIR]

superblue fluid

Waste of money on a street car. There is NO way you are braking hard enough on the street to require that stuff. I don't even use it ON TRACK and look at the pig I drive.

i have like 5 cans of it at my house from my old work.. so mught as well use it right?

[.RJ]

as for the slot/drilled argument, porsche uses ceramics as opposed to the cast iron rotors most other cars have.

Thats only an expensive option on the 996/997's.

they also cast the holes in rotor so the material isnt weakened by the x-drilling

Porsche's holes are drilled also - there isnt a longevity benefit over cast in holes over the drilled holes, provided they are both properly chamfered to relieve stress I dont think.

[Maengelito]

they also cast the holes in rotor so the material isnt weakened by the x-drilling

Porsche's holes are drilled also - there isnt a longevity benefit over cast in holes over the drilled holes, provided they are both properly chamfered to relieve stress I dont think.

if you drill into something, its gonna be weaker where the material has been worn away as opposed to forming them during the casting process. now this may be negligible in the rotor application, but the nature of drilling is making the material fail in a very localized spot.

[Maengelito]

superblue fluid

Waste of money on a street car. There is NO way you are braking hard enough on the street to require that stuff. I don't even use it ON TRACK and look at the pig I drive.

i have like 5 cans of it at my house from my old work.. so mught as well use it right?

see if chad wants to drink some. he seems to like it. or maybe we can use it to haze new officers.

[.RJ]

if you drill into something, its gonna be weaker where the material has been worn away as opposed to forming them during the casting process.

Not always. Even if they are cast in, they will still need to be machined for appearance and chamfering -

IIRC, this was posted on corner-carvers, from the supplier of porsche's brake rotors.

[G.Irish]

Well I dunno Chad, it must not be totally crap because a lot of sport bikes have drilled rotors and they have to slow down from much greater speeds than just about any street car. Of course I imagine those rotors are made very differently (read: better) than the aftermarket stuff marketed to the import crowd.

Sigh, G, have you really been out of performance cars this long?

Bikes are lighter, much lighter so I imagine it works on bikes because they don't need all that surface area and the holes are 'Home Simpson, Speed Holes'.

Glad to see you can copy and paste Chad, but I've read all of that stuff ad nauseum. My point was that it cannot be totally worthless in all situations because if it were it wouldn't be used at all (by manufacturers and race teams).

I know Porsche claims they use 'em for the wet braking performance and I know a lot of race bikes even up to World Superbike use them so I know somewhere, somehow they are useful for something. You're probably correct in that since the bikes weigh less they don't generate as much heat which would reduce the danger of stress cracks (although they'd still occur eventually).

But the fact that most if not all consumer-grade cross-drilled rotors are a waste of $$$ is not up for dispute.

[.RJ]

Well the context of this discussion was tin tops - street, track, etc.

Bikes are a whole different animal - there's less mass to stop, a lot more cooling available, there's more swept area for the amount of weight they have, and of course the 400 lb curb weight. Also, since the thermal requirements are a lot less, they can use stainless steel rotors - which will transfer heat away alot faster than iron.

[WRXtranceformed]

I bought a set of Hawk HPS which are supposed to be really good street pads. Came more highly acclaimed than the bobcats by a lot of people in the Subaru community anyhow. I'll also be running slotted rotors simply because they were CHEAPER than the OEM replacements hah. Goodridge SS lines and Motul 5.1 fluid as well will be going on, I'll let you all know how it feels after the install.