Project A4

[ScottyB]

Well it's that time kids. the racing season is gradually getting colder, holidays will soon be upon us, and the hoarding of parts for next spring's track season begins. time for me to start building my car up for autocross and track days! i want to get an early start so i'm going to be making some changes soon, and i thought i'd dedicate a thread to it for those interested and as a guide if anyone has an audi or other german car. i also want you opinions! many of you are far more knowledgable in this area than me, so your wisdom is appreciated. so far this thread will simply be about kicking off my project, so if you are expecting me to be balls deep in A4 engine parts already then you'll be dissapointed.

my goal with the A4 is to have a daily driver capable of being well suited to autocross and reliable as a fun track car every now and then. i also want to keep my car as stock in appearance as possible, not only because i like the sleeper effect, but i also want to avoid hassle if i ever choose to sell the car for some unknown reason. my funds will prohibit me from spending a huge amount of time in HPDE's, which is for the best anyhow as i have enough on my plate in other aspects of life.

some may ask, why not save the money in mods for this car and simply save up for a dedicated track car? basically it comes down to 3 major things: (A) i want on track, bad, like real bad and i can't wait (B) i feel that i have enough maturity to start out slow so my risk of wadding up the car is less © i love my car and i will enjoy making it faster, and then justifying those modification by pushing the car on track and pushing my own skill to utilize those changes in any environment i encounter. the A4 has alot of potential to be fast, so i don't think it's a lost cause at all.

so, onto the mods. there are about 5 weak points that the A4 stumbles upon when it comes to serious enthusiast driving. i plan to remedy these poor qualities in order of importance to reliable enthusiastic driving:

1 - brakes
2 - heat
3 - grip, especially power-on understeer
4 - top end power
5 - safety

there is a reason safety is less of a priority right now, and that is because (as pointed out in Hunter's thread on a cage) in order to totally deck the car out for track work, i'd need fixed seats, harnesses, and a cage, which would defeat my purpose of keeping the utility of the A4 as a 4 person sedan. eventually, though, i will add the serious safety gear as my skill and speed increase.

back to the list. i have no desire to experience brake fade, no matter what venue it may be in. for that reason, i'm going to be upgrading not only the pads, but the rotors as well. now, i'd love to go nuts and get the "stage XXXX" alcon brake kit with 2 peice 14 inch floating rotors, but i'd rather not blow all my budget on the front brakes, thanks . i also want more heat capacity than the stock rotors will allow for. for this reason, i'm going to go with a well concieved, but still budget conscious kit from ECS Tuning, a popular tuning group specializing in VAG cars.

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this kit utilizes ALL stock OEM audi products (although rotors are made by zimmerman, who supplies replacement products for audi) so it is durable and more budget conscious. the TT carriers will pull the caliper out from the rotor a bit to fit the larger and thicker A8 rotors. of course, pads will be added in addition to this kit, most likely Ferodo DS 2500. this pad is highly recommended by those who track the A4 so i will go with their recomendations. this brake upgrade will add some unsprung weight, but i intend to remedy that with some lighter track wheels in time.

again i'd like to hear advice/opinions. this is all i have to bore you with right now, but this project will be under way soon.

[.RJ]

Well it looks like you've got a pretty good handle on this. The brake upgrade looks a little pricey for what it is, maybe you can try to source the parts from a junkyard (carriers) and/or napa, etc (rotors)? For pads for track use I'd try to get a separate set of rotors and pads and swap them out before you hit the track, and look into Pagid (orange) or Carbotech pads. Motul fluid would be my choice also

Not much you can do about the heat, but if you are having temp problems in the summer then run more water than coolant along with some water wetter - I run a 75/25 mix in the integra.

For dealing with the understeer, a good set of shocks (adjustable konis) and a stiffer rear swaybar should wake the car up without detracting from its people hauling weekday duties.

Top end power - not going to happen with the stock turbo I'm assuming, so short shift a bit to maximize the powerband.

Safety - keep your head removed from your ass, your vision up and stay out of trouble

[KPWSerpiente]

I'm pretty sure those chips do well on the 1.8t's.

I'm sure Blair has got a lot of knowledge on that.

-T

[.RJ]

He has a chip But with that tiny turbo, there just isnt enough airflow to really let the motor breathe on the top end.

[ScottyB]

The brake upgrade looks a little pricey for what it is, maybe you can try to source the parts from a junkyard (carriers) and/or napa, etc (rotors)? For pads for track use I'd try to get a separate set of rotors and pads and swap them out before you hit the track, and look into Pagid (orange) or Carbotech pads. Motul fluid would be my choice also

yeah, it is a little pricey. as of right now, i don't know any good places to source the parts from individually, though. that is simply a factor of doing my research on my part, but you get my drift with what i want to end up with.

as for pads/rotors....good call on swapping them. didn't think of that.

Not much you can do about the heat, but if you are having temp problems in the summer then run more water than coolant along with some water wetter - I run a 75/25 mix in the integra.

right now its actually not coolant heat, it's oil and air intake temps. i plan to run a small oil cooler for peace of mind and i'll eventually get an upgraded SMIC as well, as stock intake temps can reach over 190 degrees on the stock SMIC. i'll explain my reasoning for sticking with an SMIC later.

For dealing with the understeer, a good set of shocks (adjustable konis) and a stiffer rear swaybar should wake the car up without detracting from its people hauling weekday duties.

i'm currently looking into a koni setup sold by stasis (they run 2 A4's in the speed TV touring car league or whatever its called) which i can get any array of spring rates with. i'll probably start with 500/700 F/R. the more serious guys with B5's run 800/1000, for reference.

Top end power - not going to happen with the stock turbo I'm assuming, so short shift a bit to maximize the powerband.

ugh. talk about getting choked off. but i have plans....oh i have plans.

Safety - keep your head removed from your ass, your vision up and stay out of trouble

well, if i'm 2 for 3 most of the time i guess that's not bad.

[ScottyB]

I'm pretty sure those chips do well on the 1.8t's.

I'm sure Blair has got a lot of knowledge on that.

-T

the chip's really transform the powerband, but frankly, you'd laugh if you drove my car considering what you're used to. it makes you think it's fast at first with the low and midrange, then up top it feels like a fat kid trying to run up the ISAT stairs.

[KPWSerpiente]

I'm used to the metro right now man.
Thankfully I should be changing that story within the next two weeks.

-T

[BLINGMW]

whoooooo sounds fun! When do we start? :wink: :beer:

[Evan]

Id hit the suspension first, Ive instructed quite a few of them and they really need some work to handle decent

[ScottyB]

Id hit the suspension first, Ive instructed quite a few of them and they really need some work to handle decent

yeah i hear that. the first time i auto-x'ed it (Chan can tell you) it was pretty fun....then at the corner exit it was like lord of the understeer. ugh.

i'm kind of torn....i want really solid brakes but i drove an indentical A4 (at that autocross) with coilovers and a rear sway bar and it was sweet. maybe compromise and get some decent pads and some shocks/springs?

[WRXtranceformed]

Sweet Scott, can't wait to see how your Audi comes along.

IMO, start with adjustable sways and see how you like it, then make the jump to springs / struts or coilovers. Chip is always a good idea! =p

[Dave]

heh, a little late to the party, but whatever, here's my input.
Good idea on the brakes. You've got a PM on that.
For heating issues, DO NOT install an FMIC. I know you said you won't be, but that is a good enough reason. Also, how accurate is your temp guage? Maybe consider getting an aftermarket set of guages (recommending water temp, oil temp, and oil pressure). Water wetter (some people swear by it) and more water (like RJ suggested) should help with that. You might also look into a larger radiator, although I wouldn't do that until you knew you needed it.
For grip, better tires and a larger rear bar should help. If you really want to keep the utility as a people hauler, save the shocks and springs as a last resort.
You don't need more power right now . Sounds like a bigger snail is the next move on that though.
Right now, a clear head and your brake upgrade will be your safety. You'll have several autoX sessions in now before you track, so you'll have an idea of how the car feels. That will be extremely helpful on track and the fact that you've identified a lot of the big problems will help you a lot too.
Good luck and get out there and have some fun. If you think you don't need it, take the money you would spend on that and put it toward track time/autoX events instead.

[.RJ]

If you really want to keep the utility as a people hauler, save the shocks and springs as a last resort.

Well if you put in a good set of shocks, the car will do everything better - and you can just set them on full soft for the daily battle stage. Adding the swaybars will add some roll stiffness as well without hurting ride quality.

[Dave]

thats what I was getting at. I don't mind any of my cars on thier stiffest settings, but driving around 5 people even at the softest settings can be abusive on occaision. My softest is still pretty stiff...

[CaptainHenreh]

thats what I was getting at. I don't mind any of my cars on thier stiffest settings, but driving around 5 people even at the softest settings can be abusive on occaision. My softest is still pretty stiff...

Dave is going to be late for work.

[ScottyB]

If you really want to keep the utility as a people hauler, save the shocks and springs as a last resort.

Well if you put in a good set of shocks, the car will do everything better - and you can just set them on full soft for the daily battle stage. Adding the swaybars will add some roll stiffness as well without hurting ride quality.

i just need it to be "tolerable" on highway drives over 4 hours, because i will be using it to travel long distances to see family/go to awesome tracks up north.

i'm actually not planning on a rear bar for three reasons:

-i think i can get some nice rotation with high rear rates, at least going from what some other audi guys do.
-the A4 is known to tripod through long turns at high g...if i run a rear bar i have a feeling i'll make the rear more prone to lift, which means the lifted tire will spin because of no rear LSD, which means i slow down until it comes back into contact with the road again. i think not running a bar will keep the tire drooped. or should i go for a front bar too, to keep the front from rolling so much and lifting the rear?
-kind of a moot point, but i think the ride quality would really blow over one-wheel bumps with some fat bars on there. oh well.


thanks for the input you guys. tell me if i sound stupid or if i'm making sense.

[.RJ]

With AWD, you may want to even consider removing the rear bar.

[ScottyB]

With AWD, you may want to even consider removing the rear bar.

hmm....it's worth a try.

didn't someone on this forum with an STi run just a front bar and it handled way better? maybe i need to jump on that.

[Mike]

yeah, chris perrera, but he smokes rocks so i wouldn't trust him ihave yet to comment in this thread, but your list looks pretty similar to mine (or what i should have done). i did suspension before brakes, but meh, not a big deal. i'd do safety before power as well.

[ScottyB]

i'd do safety before power as well.

i hear that. by "power" i don't mean just plopping a bigger turbo in....just stuff like a better intercooler, maybe a downpipe, that sort of thing -- nothing major ( i couldnt afford that for a long time anyway)