Everything is Amazing, But You Can't Fucking Buy It

[G.Irish]

I was the NY Auto Show again last week, and I got to do a interview/walk-around with the Civic product planner for the Civic Type-R and Si. As expected, Honda is not going to make a ton of units, but they wouldn't outright say how many they'd be making for the US.

So I've kinda been slowly checking around at dealerships to see how they're handling sales of them to little avail. "Is there a list?" "Uhhhh" "How many are you getting?" "Uhhhh, maybe 2 but there'll be a markup!"

It seems like there are more enthusiast models on sale now than ever before, but almost all of them are selling at a markup. Focus RS? Markups. GT3? Markups. Dodge Hellwhatever? Markups. GT350R :lol:

So yeah, technically you can buy any of these cars but it's a real pain that all of the cool shit has markups now. I guess in a way this is actually a good thing because that means manufacturers were able to make a business case for these cars at low volumes, but at the same time does it have to be that fucking low?

I dunno, I guess I'm feeling a little bit salty that there's not really anything I want, and stuff I'm interested in is marked up :?

[JPolen01]

I think the markups are absolute bullshit. They all know they are getting a limited amount. It's unfair to the consumer to add money on top of the msrp because of this. If the manufacturer wanted the car sold for x% more they would have made that the original price.

[CaptainHenreh]

If the manufacturer wanted the car sold for x% more they would have made that the original price.

Alternately, why the limited amount? I mean, cars are such legos now that it isn't like they're hand built by fucking dwarves deep under the mountains. Some things maybe still are but a goddam Focus RS isn't. A Civic Type R isn't. If the market will bear such a dramatic markup, then make more...so you can make more.

I think this is some faggotry related to dealer incentivization and protectionism. If I ordered a goddam GT350 via Amazon they'd make goddamn sure that A: they were making sufficient money off of it and B: I'd be able to get one, in due time.

Instead we've erected a tower around these goddamn middlemen that NOBODY FUCKING LIKES because once upon a time Henry Ford or Gary Chevrolet couldn't convince anyone to buy his cars so he decided to pay someone else to do it for him.

[Apoc]

I think the markups are absolute bullshit. They all know they are getting a limited amount. It's unfair to the consumer to add money on top of the msrp because of this. If the manufacturer wanted the car sold for x% more they would have made that the original price.

The free market is unfair to the consumer? That's not how supply/demand works. The manufacturer gets their margin and whatever the dealer makes on top of that isn't their concern. We should be more pissed with all the other consumers who convince manufacturers to flood the market with marginal vehicles by buying them.

[WRXtranceformed]

All fair points, I would just add though that the only people who care about dealer markups are the ones that are buying these special edition cars brand new. Just like any other vehicle they are going to depreciate and they aren't going to begin that depreciation based on the value some dummy paid so he could be the first one in his cul de sac to lay down rubber in a new uberStang. They gonna depreciate from the MSRP or whatever starting point the KBB/NADA values use in their algorithms.

We're not talking about Ferraris here right... For the most part these are everyman cars and people aren't buying them to sit in a collection and appreciate, because they won't. Just wait a year or two until Johnny NewMoney Ricerocket decides the $700/mo lease payments on his special edition Honda are more than he can manage.

[G.Irish]

Yeah you guys make a good point about these consumers paying the markups. Like who the hell are these guys? Are they getting bamboozled by salesman lies like, "It's a collectable!" "They're only making this car for one year!" "You'll make money when you sell it" "You can kill twice a many bystanders with this thing!"

For the GT3(RS) the limited production game is so intense that probably 40-50% of the threads on the GT3 forum on Rennlist are about allocations, resale value, and markups. People are getting a bigger hardon about the chase of getting the car than actually driving it. That said I really fucking want one (or a GT4).

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[WRXtranceformed]

Yeah you guys make a good point about these consumers paying the markups. Like who the hell are these guys? Are they getting bamboozled by salesman lies like, "It's a collectable!" "They're only making this car for one year!" "You'll make money when you sell it" "You can kill twice a many bystanders with this thing!"

For the GT3(RS) the limited production game is so intense that probably 40-50% of the threads on the GT3 forum on Rennlist are about allocations, resale value, and markups. People are getting a bigger hardon about the chase of getting the car than actually driving it. That said I really fucking want one (or a GT4).

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:lol:

I saw one yesterday hooning around the area back roads. Dude had that smug I'm a Por-sha driver look on his face

[Sully]

Can't remember if this was posted here or one of you guys posted on Facebook or I just stumbled on it. Sorry if it's a repost but I thought it was a pretty interesting read a couple weeks ago.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/...rs-attack/

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[ScottyB]

its frustrating for sure. i've never seen such a generally inaccessible amount of motorsports hardware before either because of price, availability, or both. i have no idea who's even buying much of this stuff because i literally never see it outside of dealer showroom turntables or as part of someone's "collection", never just driving around.

i get that halo cars are a huge marketing tool and there has to be some manufacturered rarity in order to maintain that item's status...but for the stuff like Si's and RS foci i have no idea what the limited numbers are for. sure, manufacturers are beholden to a lot of increasingly bland regulations like fleet averages, economies of scale and lean production....but these performance cars are mostly made on mainstream chassis and outside of the powertrain they aren't drastically different or unique vehicles.

which means

dealer incentivization and protectionism

and i think that's accurately most of, or a large part of the core issue. i'm not 100% sold on my own thoughts on this, but i have a feeling the cars are as much trophies for the "good dealers" to get and then mark up for their own parachute as much as they're actually for the public to drool over. the dealers get their big payday with the "rare" car and manufacturers get to market up the special allure of the Thing You Want But Can't Have until they roll the tech into blander future models that Joe Everyday can get a hold of.

[G.Irish]

Yeah I read that article a week or so ago, which definitely had me thinking a bit more about the phenomenon.

What I'm not sure of is how long are dealers holding onto irrational markups. How many of them are clinging to markups for so long that they're losing money? How many customers who were turned away bought something else from another brand? I know right now that there'll probably be a number of Acura dealerships that will lose money on NSX's that they optioned to the gills and tried to sell at a premium before race wars.

Something I have seen with several cars is that a significant amount of the buying activity is from speculators trying to flip cars. Usually with the higher end stuff like a GT3RS or M4 GTS but I think there's a bit of it even with some less expensive cars.

[JPolen01]

Something I have seen with several cars is that a significant amount of the buying activity is from speculators trying to flip cars. Usually with the higher end stuff like a GT3RS or M4 GTS but I think there's a bit of it even with some less expensive cars.

I see this a lot with the higher end stuff.

Apple Ford (big dealer around here) has 2 Focus RS's on their lot sitting right in front of the door under an overhang. It's across from Wegmans so I look at the every week when we go get groceries. Wondering how long they will sit there. I can only assume they are marked up quite a bit.

[Apoc]

The issue is you're thinking of MSRP as the market price - it's not. The market price is what people will pay for it, regardless of how much it cost to produce or who is making the margin. I mean, we don't complain when we get things under MSRP... right?

[WRXtranceformed]

How many of them are clinging to markups for so long that they're losing money? How many customers who were turned away bought something else from another brand?

Honestly this probably happens more than we ever see. My neighbor bought a Roush stage 4 something Mustang, beautiful drop top version for like what it would have cost him for a standard GT. The dealer said he had it on his lot with a markup and nobody touched it even after a few price drops, so he needed to basically just unload it. I'm sure there are suckers that pay these markups just because they can't wait or they have to have it but I would bet that a lot of the special edition models with markups share a similar fate as that Mustang.

[CaptainHenreh]

The issue is you're thinking of MSRP as the market price - it's not. The market price is what people will pay for it, regardless of how much it cost to produce or who is making the margin. I mean, we don't complain when we get things under MSRP... right?

yes, except the dealer's markup isn't market price either.

When I was FlexShopping, I was in deep negotiations with a dealer on a used one. Not even a new one, but a used one. So he had a line on one and proceeds to pull the following:

"So this is book retail, this is what it's going to cost me to run it through CPO, and then this is the market adjustment..."

Whoa whoa, hol' up. You just gonna tell me "Yeah, this right here is where I'm gonna make my next boat payment"? His right to do, of course. But then the price came out to be 7k more than the one I bought...with fewer miles. I'm not gonna just give you 7 grand because you've got a good handshake. So the "market adjustment" wasn't really, if I could get the same car 7k less?

Had to deal with the same bullshit when I went WRX shopping. "Oh but this car is rare blah blah blah so we marked it up 10%" Ok that's nice, I'll pay MSRP and not a dime over. "Well I just can't help you, then." Cue me rolling up in an STI instead of a WRX for the same money.

[.RJ]

For any of these cars, there are dealers willing to sell at MSRP if you are willing to travel a bit, or ship a car. Its part of the game and if people are willing to pay that then the price is correct :dunno:

[G.Irish]

In this case I may have to use some of my connections to get a car if I do end up going with the CTR. Will mean flying and driving back probably. Meanwhile, it might be time to put down a deposit on a 718 GT4 to get a jump on the list

[WRXtranceformed]

In this case I may have to use some of my connections to get a car if I do end up going with the CTR. Will mean flying and driving back probably. Meanwhile, it might be time to put down a deposit on a 718 GT4 to get a jump on the list

I wouldn't even worry about that man. Everything can be shipped nowadays, just roll it in to the negotiations. I bought the Jag and wifey's RDX remotely...we drove up to Hoodbridge to get the Acura because it wasn't that far and we have family up there anyway, but the Jag if you remember was shipped to my door and they even loaded my CTS on the same trailer to take back to Wisconsin in trade. I think Ryan said it best, there are always dealers you can find out there that don't charge markups you just have to be patient and do your research and then negotiate in shipping etc. from there.

The Jag dealer I bought from in Waukesha ships their cars all over the world. They said Mongolia believe it or not has been a hot market for them lately... :dunno:

[D_Eclipse9916]

In this case I may have to use some of my connections to get a car if I do end up going with the CTR. Will mean flying and driving back probably. Meanwhile, it might be time to put down a deposit on a 718 GT4 to get a jump on the list

ha... If you get a Porsche Allotment I hope you are using your marketing credentials. Joe Blow can't get one..

[Apoc]

some stuff

I think there's a big difference between a markup on a new, limited run car and a used, non-limited car from a douche trying to lie about market value. In your example, the dealer was either misinformed about supply or was just flat out lying to you. I'm guessing the latter because he's tried with other uninformed buyers and made a nice commission because of it. The VW dealer here ended up selling me a new GTI for the price of what they were selling used for because I could demonstrate there was low-barrier supply elsewhere.

That and the 911 was $15,800 because I'm pretty sure the dealer in Ohio didn't have access to the internet to understand demand. :lol:

[Mike]

Whoa whoa, hol' up. You just gonna tell me "Yeah, this right here is where I'm gonna make my next boat payment"? His right to do, of course. But then the price came out to be 7k more than the one I bought...with fewer miles. I'm not gonna just give you 7 grand because you've got a good handshake. So the "market adjustment" wasn't really, if I could get the same car 7k less?

But he knows that for every one of you, there are 50 who will pay that. He has no problem losing the educated car buyer in order to turn fancy profit on the sucker who will eventually accept his offer.