Heel Toe Issue

[rherold9]

So, I've been trying heel toe more and more lately because it is a good driving technique to have. Well my issue is my heel loves to hit my floor mats and mets things up and to do it right I really have to concentrate on lifting my foot, distracting me among other things instead of it coming naturally. Not sure if pedals too low or floor mat is the issue. Will have to test without floor mats.

If this doesn't persist what is easy ways to fix the problem I'm having? I find moving my foot up the brake pedal for initial braking feels quite awkward.

[ScottyB]

i "toe-toe", my heel stays planted on the mat. my ankles can't bend enough to actually pivot my heel over to the gas pedal while on the brake, so i basically touch the brake with the pad of my foot under my big toe and rock my foot sideways to hit the gas with the side of my foot. been doing it that way for 10 years now, works great.

the catch is that the brake has to be about level with the height of the gas when you depress it, and be close together. aftermarket pedals and spacers can solve this problem though.

and yeah, if you're serious about driving you have to learn to do it.

[rherold9]

You know I tried that but then my foot sometimes likes to slip off and it is sketchy if I was going super fast and it slipped off. Hopefully removing floor mat makes it easier.... My ankle has just enough if I try. It is just my heel loves the floor mat and sometimes it blocks my heel toe action

[SlimKlim]

I think you're better off learning the toe-toe method. I've never seen anyone actually heel-toe, I do it like scotty as well.

I brake with the ball of my big toe covering the right side of the brake pedal, so the right half of my foot is hovering over the gas pedal. When I clutch in I rotate my ankle so the right part of my foot slaps the throttle. If you look at my pedals you can see where I've actually worn a shiny spot in the right side of the brake pedal from doing it so much.

Doing it this way you aren't trying to move your whole leg around while covering the brake pedal. You learn to always brake with your foot in a position to rev match, and then it just takes a flick of the wrist (ankle in this case) to execute it. The trick is practicing it enough so that you maintain even pressure on the brake pedal while you do that little maneuver, when i first started figuring it out I'd always jab on the brakes way too hard.

A lot of cars are not designed to be heel-toe'd easily, I'd say most actually. Miatas really need a gas pedal extension to do it easily, Jake's FoST was turrible, the throttle pedal was set back in it's own little hole. The BMWs pedals are really close together so it makes it easy to do. Still, no car I've driven is as easy to rev match as my VW.

[rherold9]

Sam does the actual "heel to toe" method and has done it in my car and he says it is super easy in my car. I can agree my pedals are in very good position to do so. His foot is just prob a half-1/4 inch smaller than mine so he doesn't hit the floor mat. I was doing the "toe-to-toe" method the first times I tried but I had problems with my foot slipping and that seems ay sketchy to me....

[D_Eclipse9916]

As everyone has said, heel-toe in it's very definition is tough for anyone with shoes bigger than a men's 8. Heel-toe is just an acronym for any rev-match downshifts that you have to use both pedals.


I use toe/toe method. I am a size 12/13 and if I tried "traditional" heel-toe, everything would be in the way. I rock my foot side-to-side. Many vehicles are also "bottom" hinged meaning if you tried traditional heel-toe, you would be getting very little definition of gas pedal. Meaning the throw of the pedal at the bottom is very small of less than an inch, while the top travel is more than an inch allowing greater sensitivity.

Use this:

[SlimKlim]

If your foot is slipping off then you're not leaving enough on the brake pedal or maybe your gas pedal is just set too far back from the brake pedal to make it work. I like to do it that way because I feel like it gives me the most consistent coverage of the brake pedal. :dunno:

All cars are different, just play around with it until you find what works for you. You might be able to find a cheap gas pedal extension to make it easier.

EDIT: I bet this would make it a lot easier: https://www.flyinmiata.com/index.php?dep...r=21-74900

I dunno if they have one specifically for the Mazda3 but I'd think it's pretty universal. It lets you fill the gap between the gas and brake pedal so you can just nudge the right side of your foot down to rev match it when you're on the brakes.

[Maengelito]

I don't think there's a "proper" way of heel-toeing, you just have to find whats comfortable for you in whatever car you're driving. If your foot slips off the brake pedal, you can look into getting pedal covers or extenders for either the gas or the brake to position them how you want. Or, the cheap route you might try first is to get some skateboard deck tape and put it on the brake pedal. That way you probably won't be slipping off the brake.

[BLINGMW]

You're talking about trying this with the floormat in place, so I assume this is on the street, with... what shoes on? That could be another factor. Just about any tennis shoe works for me, but the softer sole the better, with a rounded heel (driving shoes), boots are pretty bad, as well as loafers / other slippery, loose, office work shoes. Sandals might be suicide.
Take out the floor mats, lace your shoes up tight, and give it another shot. And the rev match doesn't need to be perfect to make it a success, any blip helps.

[rherold9]

I'm a size 11. The funny thing is I believe my gas and brake are a bit too far away for the toe-toe method but not too far for heel-toe, maybe? I will take pictures. I will also keep practicing both to see what works best. When I'm in the brakes hard the pedals are pretty close to dead even with the brake pedal a bit higher up. All my pedals are top hinged.

Yes of course I'm trying on the street before with tennis shoes. I'm not going to do anything hardcore till I get a solid deal. Want to try to get this down before my Hyperdrive. My synchros do very well but that's cause low miles and low power. Yeah I will try it without floor mats. I think the problem is floor mat. I will have to report more when I try more. Keep throwing things out though for me.

[D_Eclipse9916]

I'm a size 11. The funny thing is I believe my gas and brake are a bit too far away for the toe-toe method but not too far for heel-toe, maybe? I will take pictures. I will also keep practicing both to see what works best. When I'm in the brakes hard the pedals are pretty close to dead even with the brake pedal a bit higher up. All my pedals are top hinged.

Yes of course I'm trying on the street before with tennis shoes. I'm not going to do anything hardcore till I get a solid deal. Want to try to get this down before my Hyperdrive. My synchros do very well but that's cause low miles and low power. Yeah I will try it without floor mats. I think the problem is floor mat. I will have to report more when I try more. Keep throwing things out though for me.

Rev-matching is far more important than heel-toe. Just FYI, I don't heel-toe half the time during many of my races, and I wouldn't say it hampers me. A fellow racer didn't beleive I knew how to heel-toe after watching my videos. I took him out for an HPDE to show him and he was just like...well why do you not do it then? Quirks/personal preference/I dunno? On the street/HPDE/for fun I automatically heel/toe, but in a full-fledge race I just tend not to. It's NOT a requisite skill like rev-matching.

[rherold9]

So when do you rev match DJ? It doesn't slow you down at all by not doing heel toe?? Do you like rev match as soon you get off the brakes with initial turn-in? Not gradually on the throttle through the whole turn?

[D_Eclipse9916]

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I focus on my brakes on braking, and as I turn in I blip the throttle and get it into the gear I want. Become proficient in rev-matching and it doesnt upset the car. This is ONE way of many ways.

Why I said not to worry, is you won't even be getting close to the maximum braking your car can do the first couple events, so heel-toe is just complicating matters. First focus on later and harder braking, maintaining maximum braking all the way from intial braking to braking tip off.

Car at full throttle, throttle throttle...immediately to full brakes, and clutch in. Maintain full brakes and clutch in and select gear before completely off brakes at turn in. Then right as you are off the brakes, get in the throttle to get in gear and throttle out. There are many things going on at once, heel/toe just complicates things till you get used to everything else.

[*insertusernamehere*]

Pedals makes all difference for me. Never been able to do it til I got the BMW. I also err more on the toe-toe method. I don't actually know cause like everyone else says, I just do it in a way that's comfortable. I sure as shit can't do heel-toe, anyone who can do that shit must be made out of rubber.

[rherold9]

So brakes and clutch in, lets say 5th down to 2nd, still on brakes and clutch in. Off brakes with turn in, right as I turn in, rev gas with clutch in, release clutch, get on throttle?

That is much easier but I feel like balance can be thrown off real badly if rev match and clutch out isn't smooth?

[Jake]

So brakes and clutch in, lets say 5th down to 2nd, still on brakes and clutch in. Off brakes with turn in, right as I turn in, rev gas with clutch in, release clutch, get on throttle?

That is much easier but I feel like balance can be thrown off real badly if rev match and clutch out isn't smooth?

Not quite.

Hard on the brakes with the car still in gear (4th, 5th, whatever). Let off, clutch in and shift, turn in, rev-match and throttle out of the turn.

[rherold9]

So brakes and clutch in, lets say 5th down to 2nd, still on brakes and clutch in. Off brakes with turn in, right as I turn in, rev gas with clutch in, release clutch, get on throttle?

That is much easier but I feel like balance can be thrown off real badly if rev match and clutch out isn't smooth?

Not quite.

Hard on the brakes with the car still in gear (4th, 5th, whatever). Let off, clutch in and shift, turn in, rev-match and throttle out of the turn.

For me DJ says is a bit different than what you described. I guess either way works? I can see leaving the car in gear will help slow it down a bit quicker though.

[Maengelito]

No, DJ is right. Hard on the brakes with the clutch in. Put it in the gear that you want and right before turn in, you want to release the brakes and the clutch. If you can blip the throttle right before you release the brakes and the clutch, that helps keep the car stable. But, honestly, don't worry about that for your 2nd session ever. Just work on braking, turning, and getting on the gas at the right time. There's so much going on, you don't need another thing to think about.

[rherold9]

Hmm. Okay Jake, DJ, Brian, and whoever else. Clutching in with brakes vs. just braking with clutching in at the end. Reasoning? Explanation? One better than the other?

[BLINGMW]

Yeah, DJ, Maeng, I'm with you on the straight line braking with the clutch in (depends on the car), but I don't see how that gets you out of heel-toeing without upsetting the car. You'd still need to rev match before getting off the brake, ie, heel-toe. I must be missing something because what you're describing also doesn't allow for trail braking when a downshift is required.
Seems upsetting the car with a rough shift would be better while in a straight line, rather than trying to re-engage the drivetrain just after getting off the brakes and turning in. Now, if not going particularly fast, whatever, but I don't see how you're getting away with this DJ. :dunno: