Hyperfest Registration

[G.Irish]

Im not denying you guys got a good deal going with kuhmo, but its not perfect, and you guys are still blowing the whole thing out of proportion and making yourselves sound like extremely spoiled bratty children. Thats really all I am saying. There is no gaurantee that you would have had kuhmo money next year anyway, they are paying out the equivalent of 2 national SCCA races for every local NASA event. Id be surprised if that would have continued, but i guess we will never know.
Fact of the matter is, the toyo deal is a good one and you can pay for all your tires that way. I cant ask for anything more in small pond nasa racing, and i sure as shit arent going to whine about it

The Toyo deal doesn't screw you guys over because

A. You are in a spec class and your tire size is abundant (for the most part).
B. The spec tire deal doesn't make it more difficult for SM people to crossover from SCCA. A lot of HC entrants are ITA, ITB, or ITC crossovers.
C. You didn't have a good contingency deal in the first place.
D. You haven't had to endure 3 years of NASA National dicking around with the rules and screwing something up that was already successful. A lot of the discontent has to do with the way rules have been dropped with little notice and no official member-driven input process. Sure, its their for-profit organization, they can make whatever rules they want but if you're gonna have a motorsports dictatorship you'd better make sure you get the rules right.
E. Spec Miata in NASA was never as big as ECHC was. If you guys lost 50% of your field you'd be upset too.

Look around, HC was pushing 25+ entrants in 02 and 03 and its slid ever since. H4 and H1 used to be the biggest classes and now you have 3 or 4 cars showing up for H4. It would be one thing if people were having financial trouble but the simple fact is a lot of people got tired of the B.S. and went to ITA.

[G.Irish]

Then why do other schools cost so much more??

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Because people will pay for them I guess?

I've never even heard of those guys. A lot of those schools offer less practice racing than the one day nasa supercomp school......

Yeah from what I've seen some of those private schools that count towards your SCCA license are a joke. The Roebling 3 day school was good but otoh there were a bunch of noobs who wadded up their cars. One of the head instructors said on average about 10 or so cars crash every year at that school hock:

[.RJ]

How many are spec miatas? :lol:

[G.Irish]

Actually there was a pretty good spread.

-ITS 240 flying off the end of the front straight
-Formula something or the other hitting another stopped car during a red flag drill
-Some high horsepower bling getting bent up (I don't remember what it was)
-A couple of Spec Miata incidents

[.RJ]

Good times for everyone

I really hope my car doesnt get bent up doing an SCCA school..... although if I get out with a tire donut and a missing mirror it wouldnt be so bad

[Evan]

The Toyo deal doesn't screw you guys over because

A. You are in a spec class and your tire size is abundant (for the most part).

tire availability is certainly a valid point. when SCCA went to spec toyos nationally, they worked into the deal a legally binding commitment for Toyo to produce enough tires to fill demand. NASA would be stupid not to have done something similar.

B. The spec tire deal doesn't make it more difficult for SM people to crossover from SCCA. A lot of HC entrants are ITA, ITB, or ITC crossovers.

perhaps, but scca crossovers are almost definately not the core constituents of a nasa field, you have very few scca racers who run a full nasa season, and thus it is not who nasa is marketing to. I dont blame them. You cant make large business decisions based on a few racers. Remember, the toyo deal is for all of nasa.

C. You didn't have a good contingency deal in the first place.

and like i said earlier, there was no gaurantee that the kuhmo deal would have continued.

D. You haven't had to endure 3 years of NASA National dicking around with the rules and screwing something up that was already successful. A lot of the discontent has to do with the way rules have been dropped with little notice and no official member-driven input process. Sure, its their for-profit organization, they can make whatever rules they want but if you're gonna have a motorsports dictatorship you'd better make sure you get the rules right.

completely off the subject of tires. valid points but it has no bearing on the tire issue. If thats of concern it should be addressed separately (although along with)

E. Spec Miata in NASA was never as big as ECHC was. If you guys lost 50% of your field you'd be upset too.

thats not a good comparison. ECHC is 5 classes, SM is 1. I dont think ECHC has ever consistently had 12+ cars in a single class like we do in SM. A lot of the early years of HC were fruitful due to the momentum that the founders and the people behind the class brought with it. Once that core group started to thin, there werent as many people excited about the class to fill in. This is pretty common

It would be one thing if people were having financial trouble but the simple fact is a lot of people got tired of the B.S. and went to ITA.

the thinning of the classes started before most of the "B.S." (especially in h4, where there has been minimal rules creep) so I dont really take nasa as the lone reason for that

dont get me wrong here, Im not drinking the nasa kool-aid but im not going to nasa bash either when its not deserved.

[.RJ]

perhaps, but scca crossovers are almost definately not the core constituents of a nasa field, you have very few scca racers who run a full nasa season, and thus it is not who nasa is marketing to. I dont blame them. You cant make large business decisions based on a few racers. Remember, the toyo deal is for all of nasa.

Entry fees are entry fees....

HC's first year, most of the racers were "scca crossover" types, with a few who had been DE drivers that got their race license to run with HC.

The DE drivers moving up have increased in count, and the "scca crossovers" have declined to just about 0 now. If NASA had been able ot keep these drivers, the HC fields could have been twice as large as they were in 2002. There are a lot of SCCA guys that come out and fill up your Spec Miata fields, there's no reason that HC cant do the same. NASA-VA runs at VIR, CMP, Lowes, Summit... plenty of different tracks to draw some additional entries in.

and like i said earlier, there was no gaurantee that the kuhmo deal would have continued.

There's no guarantee that the hankook deal, or the toyo deal, or any contingency will continue.

thats not a good comparison. ECHC is 5 classes, SM is 1. I dont think ECHC has ever consistently had 12 cars in a single class like we do in SM.

Separate classes or not, the series still has the potential to draw racers in. I built my integra b/c I wanted to race in honda challenge, and I'm sure it was a big draw for many other racers - certainly for the H1-H2 racers.

the thinning of the classes started before most of the "B.S." (especially in h4, where there has been minimal rules creep) so I dont really take nasa as the lone reason for that

True, since the h2-h5 has seen the least amount of changes (although I wish they'd leave the damn weights alone), and we are still not on a spec tire.... so not as much has changed for most of the field.

[G.Irish]

The Toyo deal doesn't screw you guys over because

A. You are in a spec class and your tire size is abundant (for the most part).

tire availability is certainly a valid point. when SCCA went to spec toyos nationally, they worked into the deal a legally binding commitment for Toyo to produce enough tires to fill demand. NASA would be stupid not to have done something similar.

It seems like they didn't have that clause in the contract and even then, that still doesn't solve the problem of cars with 14 and 13 inch wheels.

B. The spec tire deal doesn't make it more difficult for SM people to crossover from SCCA. A lot of HC entrants are ITA, ITB, or ITC crossovers.

perhaps, but scca crossovers are almost definately not the core constituents of a nasa field, you have very few scca racers who run a full nasa season, and thus it is not who nasa is marketing to. I dont blame them. You cant make large business decisions based on a few racers. Remember, the toyo deal is for all of nasa.

That's the thing, HC wouldn't have grown so quickly without the crossover. I know NASA has this thing about not trying to follow SCCA but bottom line is that its easier to attract people who are already racing elsewhere than it is to convince who aren't racing to make the investment to get into it. It doesn't make sense to force customers into an either or choice when you are going to be the loser. Its kind of like how Sony tried to push Betamax, ATRAC, Minidiscs or now Blu-Ray when they are obviously going to lose.

NASA has to think about all of the classes true, but part of the reason they got the deal in the first place was because of the two most popular classes: American Iron and HC. If that were not the case Toyo probably wouldn't have cared if HC did something different. SCCA SM has a spec tire deal too but you don't see SCCA forcing EVERYONE to use Toyos. You don't see the FIA forcing spec Bridgestones for WTCC and WRC because Formula 1 is going to spec tires (although I wouldn't put it past them).

Why should a series that overwhelmingly doesn't want a spec tire be forced to use one so that a bunch of smaller series can get the deal? Seems to me that the smaller series would be getting a deal they didn't deserve to the detriment of a series that was already popular.

C. You didn't have a good contingency deal in the first place.

and like i said earlier, there was no gaurantee that the kuhmo deal would have continued.

If the Kumho deal didn't continue you still could've gotten contingency from Hankook, or Hoosier, or even Toyo. I don't have a problem with contingency, I have a problem with the spec tire. Even if no deal were to be had people still wouldn't be pissed.

D. You haven't had to endure 3 years of NASA National dicking around with the rules and screwing something up that was already successful. A lot of the discontent has to do with the way rules have been dropped with little notice and no official member-driven input process. Sure, its their for-profit organization, they can make whatever rules they want but if you're gonna have a motorsports dictatorship you'd better make sure you get the rules right.

completely off the subject of tires. valid points but it has no bearing on the tire issue. If thats of concern it should be addressed separately (although along with)

The thing is that there was already a problem with the rules and this whole thing exacerbated that problem. Kinda like how the colonies were already having a problem with British rule but the Tea and Stamp taxes pushed them over the line.

E. Spec Miata in NASA was never as big as ECHC was. If you guys lost 50% of your field you'd be upset too.

thats not a good comparison. ECHC is 5 classes, SM is 1. I dont think ECHC has ever consistently had 12 cars in a single class like we do in SM.

It would be one thing if people were having financial trouble but the simple fact is a lot of people got tired of the B.S. and went to ITA.

the thinning of the classes started before most of the "B.S." (especially in h4, where there has been minimal rules creep) so I dont really take nasa as the lone reason for that

The BS was a lot of things that put people off. It didn't have to be a rule change or nonsense that affected your car specifically, just something that shook your confidence in the leadership and direction of the series. There's a reason 944 Cup opted not to be a national series.

Taken individually they might not have been a big deal but a lot of people looked at all of the stuff they disagreed with and decided they didn't wanna deal with it. Its unfortunate, especially for our region because it is run very well overall and its great group of people. I hope the momentum can swing back the other way but its not going to happen overnight.

[G.Irish]

thats not a good comparison. ECHC is 5 classes, SM is 1. I dont think ECHC has ever consistently had 12 cars in a single class like we do in SM.

Separate classes or not, the series still has the potential to draw racers in. I built my integra b/c I wanted to race in honda challenge, and I'm sure it was a big draw for many other racers - certainly for the H1-H2 racers.

I think for H4 and H5 guys part of the draw is having a lot of places where they can race. Its kind of like how if you were looking at buying a MiniDisc or CD player a few years ago, you'd go for the CD player because you could play the CD's in a lot of different places.

In another way this is a problem for World Challenge Touring guys. Those cars can't fit into any classes elsewhere (in club racing) so it puts a HUGE hurt on the resale value of the cars after they become ineligible for the series. Of course that's a big messy complex problem but I just wanted to use that to show the negative effect of having only one place to race a particular car.

[Evan]

HC's first year, most of the racers were "scca crossover" types, with a few who had been DE drivers that got their race license to run with HC.

most? the core group was definately not scca crossovers. corey, jack, franza, williams, warren, whitaker, giles, shultz, chad, i dont even remember the rest. scca racers may have come out to a race or 2 over the course of the season, but thats not repeat business. Thats not who you market to.

The DE drivers moving up have increased in count, and the "scca crossovers" have declined to just about 0 now. If NASA had been able ot keep these drivers, the HC fields could have been twice as large as they were in 2002.

you really cant say that reliably. Remember, at that time SCCA IT sucked. It sucks considerably less now. Any scca racer is probably goign to go back to scca when it stops sucking as bad. Especially when racing costs are high. I think thats a big reason that the fields are smaller, because h2-h5 hasnt seen a lot of the BS changes that the west coast NASA HQ has handed down. (until next year)

There are a lot of SCCA guys that come out and fill up your Spec Miata fields,

a lot? aside from hyperfest we may get 2 scca "randoms" not counting katnich and maybe another guy who run the whole season with both

There's no guarantee that the hankook deal, or the toyo deal, or any contingency will continue.

the toyo deal has a several year contract

[G.Irish]

dont get me wrong here, Im not drinking the nasa kool-aid but im not going to nasa bash either when its not deserved.

Who's bashing? Well, I guess I am bashing the National guys, especially Flaherty because I think he is terrible at communicating with the membership and I think the other Nat'l guys are inept at managing the organization. Sure its not going to self destruct tomorrow but I think they did a terrible job on several points.

I've had a blast working and driving with our region but I've got no love for National.

[Evan]

That's the thing, HC wouldn't have grown so quickly without the crossover.

you guys keep saying this but I just dont buy it. HC grew quickly because there was a very strong and very enthusiastic core of racers (most of which were not scca crossovers) that i listed in my previous post. SCCA guys filled out a few spots to see what the hubub was about, but it wasnt the core of the series.
Remember a couple years ago when we were chatting about the club, and how most new clubs die out after the first wave of founding officers graduates? Same thing here. Lots of enthusiasm from the founders, after that it easily trails off.

NASA has to think about all of the classes true, but part of the reason they got the deal in the first place was because of the two most popular classes: American Iron and HC.

eh....Im not convinced HC is one of the most popular classes, ...you look at numbers from a lot of the other series and they are right up there if not past the HC numbers. and AI was spec toyo from the beginning, toyo didnt need this deal to get on that gravy train

SCCA SM has a spec tire deal too but you don't see SCCA forcing EVERYONE to use Toyos.

true, but a scca SM field is larger than all the nasa classes put together.....but I think ultimately we are seeing the negatives of a for-profit organization. For years we were told about all the advantages. Customer driven, listen to input (ironic...), etc. But in the end they are there to make money, so corporate deals are goign to be a given. Does that make it right? or ok? maybe, maybe not, but it shouldnt surprise you. Just like SCCA pro inking spec tire deals, we probably should have seen it coming.

Why should a series that overwhelmingly doesn't want a spec tire
be forced to use one so that a bunch of smaller series can get the deal? Seems to me that the smaller series would be getting a deal they didn't deserve to the detriment of a series that was already popular.

other regions especially west coasters would disagree with the overwhelming part, but I wouldnt necessarily disagree with you except for the fact i think you are overstating the popularity of HC. Maybe you just have had tunnelvision for HC and paid attention to all the ht threads and everything, but its not nearly the biggest game in town.

The thing is that there was already a problem with the rules and this whole thing exacerbated that problem. Kinda like how the colonies were already having a problem with British rule but the Tea and Stamp taxes pushed them over the line.

almost all that rules dicking was with h1, but h2-h5 have seen the biggest attrition, and h1 is the strongest class.

The BS was a lot of things that put people off. It didn't have to be a rule change or nonsense that affected your car specifically, just something that shook your confidence in the leadership and direction of the series. There's a reason 944 Cup opted not to be a national series.

im not convinced. not everyone read HT. you may have been deep into the politics of it, but not everyone was even aware of it especially those scca crossovers you guys keep talking about

[G.Irish]

That's the thing, HC wouldn't have grown so quickly without the crossover.

you guys keep saying this but I just dont buy it. HC grew quickly because there was a very strong and very enthusiastic core of racers (most of which were not scca crossovers) that i listed in my previous post. SCCA guys filled out a few spots to see what the hubub was about, but it wasnt the core of the series.
Remember a couple years ago when we were chatting about the club, and how most new clubs die out after the first wave of founding officers graduates? Same thing here. Lots of enthusiasm from the founders, after that it easily trails off.

There's at least 20 guys who've left HC and are racing SCCA right now. Some of them were originally NASA guys but either way that's not good. I may very well be one of those guys next year if NASA-MA goes to a spec tire. Same with RJ.

NASA has to think about all of the classes true, but part of the reason they got the deal in the first place was because of the two most popular classes: American Iron and HC.

eh....Im not convinced HC is one of the most popular classes, ...you look at numbers from a lot of the other series and they are right up there if not past the HC numbers. and AI was spec toyo from the beginning, toyo didnt need this deal to get on that gravy train

Car count wise American Iron is the only class that was bigger. Its[HC] not the biggest class anymore because of aformentioned reasons but let's be honest, whenever you see NASA ads in GRM or whatever, they were not ads of GTi Cup or Spec Neon. HC and AI were the first two classes that actually got popular within NASA. Before that I remember there being a small hodgepodge of cars here and there, some weekends you had 8 or 9 Factory Fives but HC and AI were the first two classes in the East that really took off.

AI's situation is a bit different because they have zero chance of crossover anyway. But even then, if Toyo didn't need HC for the aforementioned gravy train then it would be no problem for them to exclude Honda Challenge from having to use the spec tire.

SCCA SM has a spec tire deal too but you don't see SCCA forcing EVERYONE to use Toyos.

true, but a scca SM field is larger than all the nasa classes put together.....but I think ultimately we are seeing the negatives of a for-profit organization. For years we were told about all the advantages. Customer driven, listen to input (ironic...), etc. But in the end they are there to make money, so corporate deals are goign to be a given. Does that make it right? or ok? maybe, maybe not, but it shouldnt surprise you. Just like SCCA pro inking spec tire deals, we probably should have seen it coming.

Yep. Maybe the money numbers work out better with the spec tire deal so I wouldn't blame in that case. However, what I see is the cold plain fact that it costs a LOT more to get new customers than it does the keep the old ones (some business books say 10x). Maybe the Toyo money is big enough that it makes up for the lost revenue.

Why should a series that overwhelmingly doesn't want a spec tire
be forced to use one so that a bunch of smaller series can get the deal? Seems to me that the smaller series would be getting a deal they didn't deserve to the detriment of a series that was already popular.

other regions especially west coasters would disagree with the overwhelming part, but I wouldnt necessarily disagree with you except for the fact i think you are overstating the popularity of HC. Maybe you just have had tunnelvision for HC and paid attention to all the ht threads and everything, but its not nearly the biggest game in town.

Its pretty much been ONLY the West Coast that wanted it. MWHC, ECHC, and SEHC have all been against it. And again, HC is not the most popular class anymore for the aforementioned reasons. The only other series that ever pulled 25+ entrants was American Iron.

The thing is that there was already a problem with the rules and this whole thing exacerbated that problem. Kinda like how the colonies were already having a problem with British rule but the Tea and Stamp taxes pushed them over the line.

almost all that rules dicking was with h1, but h2-h5 have seen the biggest attrition, and h1 is the strongest class.

That's because h3-h5 can all go to the SCCA. H1 is the only place for H1 cars to race. Most of the foolishness was in fact H1, but when you have the national director saying stuff like, 'We don't need you', 'Stop whining', and 'We don't need SCCA's table scraps' its going to piss people off. Add nonsense at the track, and SCCA getting its act together and you've given people the motivation to leave and a place for them to go.

The BS was a lot of things that put people off. It didn't have to be a rule change or nonsense that affected your car specifically, just something that shook your confidence in the leadership and direction of the series. There's a reason 944 Cup opted not to be a national series.

im not convinced. not everyone read HT. you may have been deep into the politics of it, but not everyone was even aware of it especially those scca crossovers you guys keep talking about

Yeah but between HT, Nasaforums, word of mouth, stuff happening at the track, there are plenty of ways for stuff to get around. Certainly not all of the attrition was due to the tire issue, it was a lot of things. But the tire issue has definitely gotten more people to jump ship.

[.RJ]

most? the core group was definately not scca crossovers. corey, jack, franza, williams, warren, whitaker, giles, shultz, chad, i dont even remember the rest. scca racers may have come out to a race or 2 over the course of the season, but thats not repeat business. Thats not who you market to.

You're right, the SCCA guys who came out only did 2 or 3 weekends a year, at most - they're looking to fill the schedule, I suppose. You say it is not important, but it happens all the time with spec miata - how many "scca guys" come out to the nasa events at summit? at VIR? Its not worth ignoring in the least.

If nothing else, it grows the fields, which the organization can use to leverage better contingency from tires, the race site, kingrat, etc, etc... and if the series is doing a good job, and these "scraps" come do a race or two they may stick around and not go back to SCCA. Its much easier to get that customer and retain them, than to convince people to come up through DE"s and spend $15-$40k on a racecar, truck, trailer, etc... is it not repeat business if they dont run the whole year? What if they do 2 events a year, every year? Sounds repeat to me... there were quite a few of those guys, now they are gone.

the toyo deal has a several year contract

So did the Job me and Gerald had last year :lol: <pot shot>

eh....Im not convinced HC is one of the most popular classes, ...you look at numbers from a lot of the other series and they are right up there if not past the HC numbers

Thats why I said "one of" not "the most". The counts are similar to AI and SM, and there isnt anything else out there with as many entries as those 3.

Just like SCCA pro inking spec tire deals, we probably should have seen it coming.

Yeah, but this is club racing. Spec tires work when the cars are spec and everyone uses the same size... not so much for a series when there are a dozen different chassis tire sizes being used.

almost all that rules dicking was with h1, but h2-h5 have seen the biggest attrition, and h1 is the strongest class.

H1 has had the most attrition since last year as well... at least in terms of people consistently showing up to race.

[Evan]

There's at least 20 guys who've left HC and are racing SCCA right now. Some of them were originally NASA guys but either way that's not good.

sure Ill agree with that, but thats not the point. You said the sereies was built on scca crossover and I disagree. HC was built on the enthusasm of a gruop of people and after they left, the series faltered.
Loosing customers to SCCA means h3-h5, and those rules werent dicked with, so I think it has more to do with SCCA than nasa.

I may very well be one of those guys next year if NASA-MA goes to a spec tire. Same with RJ.

You have to actually start racing w/ nasa before you can leave
you still convinced you can win the pool?

Yep. Maybe the money numbers work out better with the spec tire deal so I wouldn't blame in that case. However, what I see is the cold plain fact that it costs a LOT more to get new customers than it does the keep the old ones (some business books say 10x). Maybe the Toyo money is big enough that it makes up for the lost revenue.

but the question here is what defines a roadracing customer? Is a guy who has some leftover tires and wants to run at vir or summit an extra time or two during the year really a customer? that you want to put investment into? An scca racer I wouldnt consider a customer because if the budget runs tight they are going to default to just scca no matter what you do. The cost for new customers may be 10x, but converting customers of competitors may be 50x.

That's because h3-h5 can all go to the SCCA. H1 is the only place for H1 cars to race. Most of the foolishness was in fact H1, but when you have the national director saying stuff like, 'We don't need you', 'Stop whining', and 'We don't need SCCA's table scraps' its going to piss people off. Add nonsense at the track, and SCCA getting its act together and you've given people the motivation to leave and a place for them to go.

I agree with you for the most part, but I just dont think that its in direct response to nasa's actions. The west coast nasa staff are complete assmonkeys, but i dont think most of the hc racers are necessarily paying attention. I think it has more to do with the grass currently being greener on the s club side, kind of like it was the other way around a few years ago.

But the tire issue has definitely gotten more people to jump ship.

has it? other than the people that were asked to never come back? The tire issue isnt really an issue until next year

[Evan]

You're right, the SCCA guys who came out only did 2 or 3 weekends a year, at most - they're looking to fill the schedule, I suppose. You say it is not important, but it happens all the time with spec miata - how many "scca guys" come out to the nasa events at summit? at VIR? Its not worth ignoring in the least.

I dont think its something to ignore, just not something to run the organization around. I simply dont think that they are reliable repeat customers. If they are going to do more than 2 races they are going to need another set of tires anyway, and SM toyo takeoffs are cheap.

Its much easier to get that customer and retain them,

see my above comments. in this scenario, I strongly disagree. they are already someone else's customer and unless something is very busted with SCCA, they arent going to leave. Just look at how pitiful the SCCA crossover was with the IT classes in PT.
One of the best parts of racing is the ongoing season battle. You dont get that when 70% of the field doenst get enough races to qualify, or you win the title just by showing up to the most races.
In SM we have what looks like (so far) at least 10 guys who will reach the max number of races, and its great.

Thats why I said "one of" not "the most". The counts are similar to AI and SM, and there isnt anything else out there with as many entries as those 3.

im pretty sure 944 had the biggest turnout of all the past couple years. Not sure about GTS but it seems like there are quite a few of those too

Yeah, but this is club racing. Spec tires work when the cars are spec and everyone uses the same size... not so much for a series when there are a dozen different chassis tire sizes being used.

Nasa is for-profit. Just like SCCA-pro. label it how you want, but the economic drivers are the same. Im not saying its "right" just that we all should have seen it coming.

[.RJ]

im pretty sure 944 had the biggest turnout of all the past couple years

I didnt count them because they are not really a nasa series - they just drive with nasa, control their own rulebook, dont have spec tires, etc... Notice a pattern?

Not all of their races are with nasa either, they do a 3-race weekend with EMRA as well.

[Feersty]

Do rising gas prices have anything to do with attrition? I feel like it does.

[white_2kgt]

Do rising gas prices have anything to do with attrition? I feel like it does.

ha, Gas is about 1/10 of my total budget for a race weekend, yes, even the gas for towing to the track.

[Maengelito]

so yeah, i cant wait for hyperfest!!!