Water as a Fuel

[Ryan T]

Bogus? Maybe.
Interesting? Yes.

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[WRXtranceformed]

I know stuff like this has been in development for years, but you can bet that any serious attempts at applying it to such huge markets such as, say, the automotive industry have been quickly silenced or bought out by the oil companies.

Now that everyone is making such a big stink about gas prices, it's possible that these systems can finally come out of the woodwork and we can all start running our cars off of human feces or recycled floaters from beer pong parties or some other crazy shit.

[white_2kgt]

I know stuff like this has been in development for years, but you can bet that any serious attempts at applying it to such huge markets such as, say, the automotive industry have been quickly silenced or bought out by the oil companies.

You wear a tin foil hat everyday too?

[WRXtranceformed]

I know stuff like this has been in development for years, but you can bet that any serious attempts at applying it to such huge markets such as, say, the automotive industry have been quickly silenced or bought out by the oil companies.

You wear a tin foil hat everyday too?

It's not a secret that automotive companies have developed alternative energy engines for use in their cars. With as much as you people bitch about gas prices (and I say you people, because I know not every one of you is used to paying for premium gas...plus I get mileage reimbursement so gas prices have never bothered me either way really =p), you would think that an alternative energy car would be a pretty popular seller if they pushed a few decent cars like that on the market.

Where do you think the pressure is coming from to not put a little more R&D into it and put these cars out sooner as opposed to later? It's also not a secret that the big oil companies play pocket pool with the highest level members of our government. It's not like that's a conspiracy theory or anything, it's all about money and the possibility of losing it.

[.RJ]

It's not a secret that automotive companies have developed alternative energy engines for use in their cars.

And it has been heavily subsidized by the federal gov't for as long as they've been in development - and at this time, its just not cost effective on a mass market scale. Most "alternative fuel" vehicles are still an energy and $$ losing proposition from a complete lifecycle standpoint. The car itself may be more effecient, but getting there (hydrogen production, electricity production) uses more energy than refining oil into gas.

[G.Irish]

It's not a secret that automotive companies have developed alternative energy engines for use in their cars. With as much as you people bitch about gas prices (and I say you people, because I know not every one of you is used to paying for premium gas...plus I get mileage reimbursement so gas prices have never bothered me either way really =p), you would think that an alternative energy car would be a pretty popular seller if they pushed a few decent cars like that on the market.

The problem with a lot of the alternative fuel stuff is that its not cost competitive with gasoline yet. Fuel cells are just not quite there on range and cost yet. However, diesels and hybrids are getting better every day and I think you'll see several new diesel powered vehicles in the next few years with the new higher grade of diesel becoming available in the US.

So with this guy's electrolysis technique, it could simply be that its not cost effective yet.

Where do you think the pressure is coming from to not put a little more R&D into it and put these cars out sooner as opposed to later? It's also not a secret that the big oil companies play pocket pool with the highest level members of our government. It's not like that's a conspiracy theory or anything, it's all about money and the possibility of losing it.

With ethanol part of it is probably politics for sure. If the federal government made a big push to make ethanol available on a wide scale it could happen a lot sooner.

However I think you'd be surprised to know that some of the petroleum companies are developing alternative fuel themselves. Oil companies have to make investments on a fairly long time scale since it takes a lot of capital and government red tape to open up new wells. They know that the cheap oil gravy train won't last forever so some of the smart oil companies (like BP) are starting to invest in next gen fuels so that they can be ahead of the curve in the next 20 years and beyond.

[.RJ]

and beyond.

[WRXtranceformed]

However I think you'd be surprised to know that some of the petroleum companies are developing alternative fuel themselves. Oil companies have to make investments on a fairly long time scale since it takes a lot of capital and government red tape to open up new wells. They know that the cheap oil gravy train won't last forever so some of the smart oil companies (like BP) are starting to invest in next gen fuels so that they can be ahead of the curve in the next 20 years and beyond.

Oh absolutely. BP is definitely one of the front runners, and again, it's obviously fueled by a desire to be ahead financially when the popularity and feasibility curves of alternative energy finally peak. If these companies can continue to pull record quarterly profits off of the black stuff though, it makes complete sense why they'd drag their heels to spend their own money developing stuff like this.

[Evan]

there is no economic advantage to supressing alternative energy.
the first to market (and patent) with mass scale alternative energy will make $billions

btw, there was some bad Keanu Reeves flick about water energy and all the Bad GuysÔäó trying to stop him

[G.Irish]

there is no economic advantage to supressing alternative energy.

There is if your oil company is too stupid and short-sighted to pursue alternative energy.

[WRXtranceformed]

there is no economic advantage to supressing alternative energy.

There is if your oil company is too stupid and short-sighted to pursue alternative energy.

I agree with Evan, and I also completely agree with Gerald. Why give up on something so well established and profitable already? I don't see change like that happening until we literally have to make that change, for whatever reason.

The more we buy oil, the more we're supporting and remain dependant on the Middle Eastern countries who supply it, which is kind of weak considering how vulnerable that leaves us.

[G.Irish]

The more we buy oil, the more we're supporting and remain dependant on the Middle Eastern countries who supply it, which is kind of weak considering how vulnerable that leaves us.

Yeah it would be better for the long term health of our country to not have to depend on foreign oil for energy so that we won't have to get embroiled in the inevitable future squabbles over oil. Especially considering that India and China are going to start consuming a lot more oil in the next couple of decades.

Also, by being leaders in alternative energy we stand to reap a huge amount of economical rewards.

[Maengelito]

Especially considering that India and China are going to start consuming a lot more oil in the next couple of decades.

yeah, try they already have been... its not just oil companies that are short sighted. yeah, its probably in their long term interest to research alternative energy but its no gaurantee that they'll get anything with nearly as big a profit margin or atleast without some huge initial investment. businesses in general try to maximize profits in the short term because there is no gaurantee that they'll be around for future competition. its just trying to find the medium which is gradually moving towards demand for alternative energy.

and as for this video, i'm a skeptic. energy can neither be created nor destroyed and they dont go into how efficient his electrolysis technique is. in fact, they did say his car is setup as a hybrid system where he still has an internal combustion engine, which is most likely to run some generators. i'm sure there's a benefit to run his setup or else he probably wouldnt but its probably not nearly as efficient as this video might lead to believe...

"oh lisa... in this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!" [/homer]

[Evan]

With ethanol part of it is probably politics for sure. If the federal government made a big push to make ethanol available on a wide scale it could happen a lot sooner.

no chance, ethanol is a net loss energy source. Meaning, it takes 100 BTUs of energy to produce an amount of ethanol that outputs 80 BTUs. (made up numbers)

However I think you'd be surprised to know that some of the petroleum companies are developing alternative fuel themselves.
some of the smart oil companies (like BP) are starting to invest in next gen fuels so that they can be ahead of the curve in the next 20 years and beyond.

Not just some, but all! Oil companies are the biggest investors into alternative energy right now.

[G.Irish]

With ethanol part of it is probably politics for sure. If the federal government made a big push to make ethanol available on a wide scale it could happen a lot sooner.

no chance, ethanol is a net loss energy source. Meaning, it takes 100 BTUs of energy to produce an amount of ethanol that outputs 80 BTUs. (made up numbers)

Corn based ethanol yields either a negligible or negative engergy return. Sugar cane based ethanol (and I think a few others) deliver a net gain. Brazil offers nationwide E85 because they use sugar cane ethanol. And I'm sure their Coke uses real sugar instead of high fructose corn syrup too. And their soccer team kicks ass...

Let's bomb them!!!

[G.Irish]

But not before we extract all of their hot women 8)

[Ginger]

Any of the "major" oil companies are going to be investigating alternative energies as a matter of livlihood. The conspiracists who claim that they're silencing alternative markets haven't thought the idea through. It's a cartelistic idea that doesn't hold water (hah hah, no pun intended).

The potential for profit of a competitive alternative energy source is huge. If somebody could produce an alternative that could be quickly adoptable and consistently cheaper than oil they would expanding both the market's supplies and it's producers. The price of fuel would have to radpidly adjust and the amount of money stood to be made in such alternative energy is unthinkably large. For this reason you'll not only see oil companies not silencing these ideas, but researching them instead.

In the event that an alternative solution is doscovered you can be darn sure that it's not going to get hidden. It's a pretty solid principle that if a single company discovers it then they're going to market it as quickly as possible. In the multiple companies conspiracy theory, though, what about that? It'll be a rush to see who can get it first, or something to that effect. It won't be squashed - because the potential for one company to pull the rug out from the under the other and take the solution to market is too great.

[Maengelito]

The potential for profit of a competitive alternative energy source is huge. If somebody could produce an alternative that could be quickly adoptable and consistently cheaper than oil they would expanding both the market's supplies and it's producers. The price of fuel would have to radpidly adjust and the amount of money stood to be made in such alternative energy is unthinkably large. For this reason you'll not only see oil companies not silencing these ideas, but researching them instead.

In the event that an alternative solution is doscovered you can be darn sure that it's not going to get hidden. It's a pretty solid principle that if a single company discovers it then they're going to market it as quickly as possible. In the multiple companies conspiracy theory, though, what about that? It'll be a rush to see who can get it first, or something to that effect. It won't be squashed - because the potential for one company to pull the rug out from the under the other and take the solution to market is too great.

everyone knows the potential for profit in an alternative energy source. the basis of human civilization is always based around natural resources. the argument though is that an alternative energy source with the same profit margin doesn't exist or atleast isnt available without some massive initial investment. even then, it'd be hard to say just how efficient it would be even if it is cleaner and more abundant

[white_2kgt]

"oh lisa... in this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!" [/homer]

Exactly, according to the 2nd law this is impossible. It takes more energy to extract the Hydrogen out of water than you get from the Hydrogen.

2nd Law: aka: "You can't break even."

This is complete and utter bullshit.

[G.Irish]

"oh lisa... in this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!" [/homer]

Exactly, according to the 2nd law this is impossible. It takes more energy to extract the Hydrogen out of water than you get from the Hydrogen.

2nd Law: aka: "You can't break even."

This is complete and utter bullshit.

Nah I didn't get the impression they were trying to say that from the news clip, just that this guy maybe found a better way to crack hydrogen (or maybe a better way to recombine it).