OT: CIA Poker and Prostitutes Scandal

[G.Irish]

So I was watching the Daily Show the other day and they were talking about the resignation of CIA director Porter Goss. Well they were showing clips of several news outlets commenting on something about prostitutes and poker games in regard to Goss. I laughed but it was so absurd I had to look it up. I didn't do too much searching but what I've already found is this:

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Cliff notes:
A Congressman has been convicted of bribery but it turns out that a limo service was getting kickbacks in the form of gov't contracts. This limo company apparently brought prostitutes to private parties for some Congressmen and gov't officials. Apparently the 3rd in command at the CIA (someone Porter Goss brought in) was directly involved.

Stranger than fiction.

[Goodspeed]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/12/c...index.html

I believe thats the guy you're talking about.

Maybe I was too young, but I don't think there has been any single administration since the Nixon era that has recieved so many black eyes in its existence. This is amazing. Together with this secret massive NSA phone call/email database, you can only wonder what the hell else they are going to do wrong. Someones going to burn for all this, no?

[Evan]

yeah you must be young.
a few overhyped media scandals (always the case when the GOP occupies the white house) got nuthin on fucking interns with cigars and lying to congress
and lets not forget whitewatergate, mysterious "suicides", campaign money scams, stealing/coverup classified docs etc

hookers and poker is childs play in comparison (and to be honest, par for course in washington unfortunately)

[G.Irish]

Sorry Evan but getting a blowjob from an intern is not a crime, prostitution and bribery is. Lying under oath is however a major crime.

I have to wonder if Goss' resignation was called for when all this stuff with Duke Cunningham started to get linked to him. My guess is that once the WH started getting wind that this guy's extracurricular activities were going to be outed they privately called for his resignation.

And I also disagree that its just a few overhyped media scandals that are only targetting the GOP. If anything it should be less likely that Republicans are getting indicted and sent to jail over things while they control Congress and the White House.

I don't particularly care what party crooked politicians come from because they are present in both. The fact that the focus becomes about party affiliation rather than the real issue of corruption prevents reasonable dialogue about it. Usually it just devolves into people arguing about parties when that is not really what's important.

[G.Irish]

Someones going to burn for all this, no?

Doubt it. Public outrage over all of this has been relatively mild and I don't think there are enough congressmen who would press the issue against the administration. At least on the NSA thing. On smaller stuff like the web of bribery around some of these lobbyists I think a few more will go down over it.

[Evan]

Sorry Evan but getting a blowjob from an intern is not a crime, prostitution and bribery is.

Lying to congress most certainly is, and was the reason for Clinton's impeachment. The media tried to distort it into a morality issue, which is of course more of a grey area than the black and white lying to congress issue. And regardless, even while not technically illegal it is most definately a scandal in the worst sense and was a response to Goodspeed's comment.

And I also disagree that its just a few overhyped media scandals that are only targetting the GOP. If anything it should be less likely that Republicans are getting indicted and sent to jail over things while they control Congress and the White House.

That makes absolutely no sense, and implies that the party in power has some sort of influence over the media. The media using its influence to latching on to every pseudo-scandal in order to sway public opinion and overturn the GOP majority rule in the senate this year.

I don't particularly care what party crooked politicians come from because they are present in both. The fact that the focus becomes about party affiliation rather than the real issue of corruption prevents reasonable dialogue about it. Usually it just devolves into people arguing about parties when that is not really what's important.

I agree, but this is how they are presented to us. Its all a game of "republican scandal" or "democrat scandal" with both sides playing the blame game. Goodspeed's comment is a perfect example of the effects of that. Like the Abramoff scandal recently, where it was made out to be a republican scandal but there were just as many dem takers on his money list. Even the minority leader who spearheaded the scandal accusations.

[Andy]

Not addressing the Repub/Dem divide, but can we can at least agree that the current administration lied to us about the NSA wiretaps.

Evan, as a Republican, does news of massive wiretapping that is broader than what President Bush promised it would be bother you?

[G.Irish]

And I also disagree that its just a few overhyped media scandals that are only targetting the GOP. If anything it should be less likely that Republicans are getting indicted and sent to jail over things while they control Congress and the White House.

That makes absolutely no sense, and implies that the party in power has some sort of influence over the media. The media using its influence to latching on to every pseudo-scandal in order to sway public opinion and overturn the GOP majority rule in the senate this year.

Pseudo-scandal? Which ones were pseudo-scandals? I saw the majority leader having to step down over money laundering, a prominent lobbyist being linked to massive bribery, a White House official outing a CIA operative, a possibly illegal wiretapping program, and a CIA director's staff being involved with bribery. The outcome of all of this stuff is far from certain but definitely doesn't seem to be fake to me. If anything I think the media has kinda been soft since its war time.

I agree, but this is how they are presented to us. Its all a game of "republican scandal" or "democrat scandal" with both sides playing the blame game. Goodspeed's comment is a perfect example of the effects of that. Like the Abramoff scandal recently, where it was made out to be a republican scandal but there were just as many dem takers on his money list. Even the minority leader who spearheaded the scandal accusations.

Yeah the problem is that if people are on one team, they automatically assume that their position is correct and the other team is wrong. They also assume that if the other team is wrong then their team must be correct.

There are times when both teams are correct and when both teams are wrong but we're so caught up in partisanship that we miss it. Honestly I think the 2 party system has made Americans very politically lazy, although to be fair there are a lot of factors behind American political apathy.

[G.Irish]

Not addressing the Repub/Dem divide, but can we can at least agree that the current administration lied to us about the NSA wiretaps.

Evan, as a Republican, does news of massive wiretapping that is broader than what President Bush promised it would be bother you?

On the wiretapping, what bothers me is not that they kept it secret, but that they circumvented the established secret judicial channels they shoud have gone through. They can swear all up and down that it was Al Qaeda only but that's making the presumption that they are infallible which is obviously absurd. Even then, if one end of the line was a US citizen then the law says they needed to get a warrant. Since they assert that national security is at stake they should have gone through the secret court to make their request. This court has NEVER denied a request.

Thinking about the call logging objectively I don't expect that who I call would be concealed since it has to go through a private company. The same way I don't think who I mail to would be secret since someone could see who I address stuff to. However, whenever law enforcement officials want this kind of information typically they need a warrant. This prevents the powers that be from spying on the people and possibly abusing their power.

On the surface logging phone calls and looking for patterns seems innocuous enough. But with this tool the government could also ferret out the networks of people who disagree with the ruling junta. Combine this with a law that allows people to be held without trial and you have an opportunity for serious abuse. Sure, it may not have happened yet, but you don't want to put the pieces in place for this kind of abuse to happen in the future.

That's what this is about for me. The erosion of our rights. People say Rome wasn't built overnight. Well Rome wasn't burned overnight either. It was a slow decline that was fed by complacency and accumulated misteps that culminated in the fall. We must be eternally vigilant that we don't start signing away our freedoms and rights so that one day we don't wake up and find ourselves being crushed under the foot of authoritarianism.

[Evan]

Not addressing the Repub/Dem divide, but can we can at least agree that the current administration lied to us about the NSA wiretaps.

Evan, as a Republican, does news of massive wiretapping that is broader than what President Bush promised it would be bother you?

Andy I think you need to read past the shock factor headlines. The "broader" NSA program does not wiretap a single word or conversation, it records the source and destination along with some other metadata about the call to establish calling patterns and identify potential terrorists.
And to be honest, I had no problem with the previous wire taps, and even if this were it a full wiretapping program, I would have no issue. Maybe I just have a different perspective from working in the intel community, but the NSA doesnt give a shit about your private conversations or business, unless you are a bad guy they arent listening to you. If anyone wants to tell me that they are going to abuse the power or some such shit then they can go have a little party with their tin foil hats.
It makes me sick that we have the power and the means to crack down on groups of people that would like nothing more than to murder every person in this country, yet we defeat ourselves with political correct bullshit and the like.

(IBT worthless TJ quote :roll: )

[Andy]

It seems like the difference between our respective viewpoints is that I see the expansion of government into the personal sphere as the beginning where maybe you think this is the end. Maybe President Bush won't expand his powers further but his sucessors will. History validates the slippery slope theory.

What concerns me is the diametrically opposed rhetoric of the President. Can one continue to argue that the federal government is too inept to manage money, education and all those other things the Republican party wants to roll back on, but yet argue that we should trust them with our freedoms.

[WRXtranceformed]

I don't know about you guys, but I can't fucking wait until our douchebag President is done with his term and the GOP loses control of the Senate. Whether you're a Republican or Democrat, you need to keep an alternating balance of power in this country to balance out a lot of things. Plus, it's nice to not constantly be at war with someone. Even our military now is raising its eyebrows at a possible conflict with Iran and being like: we're stretched way too thin, and this is getting ridiculous.

[WRXtranceformed]

Oh, and on the topic of CIA scandals, it doesn't surprise me in the least. Fuck it, I'd do the same exact thing if I had that much power. I'd be dropping your tax dollars on all kinds of Julia Roberts style sluts and having a good chuckle with all of my black tie buddies about it after they mopped up some sloppy seconds.

Call it "perks of the job" when you literally have nobody to check up on you.

[G.Irish]

Actually I was thinking the whole prostitutes and poker thing was kinda ironic because I think prostitution should be legal. If someone wants to pay someone else to have sex with me why should I care? Maybe some of these Congressmen will now be motivated to make it legal.

But yeah as Andy said I refuse to believe that with increased government power and decreased transparency that its always going to be used responsibly. The government is made up of people and when some people get power they abuse it, this much is inevitable. Here we have the executive director of the CIA involved in bribery and we should just give the intelligence community carte blanche to do what they want?

No one is saying we shouldn't collect intel or that we shouldn't practice proactive law enforcement. But there needs to be a system of checks and balances because sometimes the bad guys are the ones who say they are trying to catch the bad guys.

[bassmangrammy]

Sad day to be a republican... 3rd party anyone?

[G.Irish]

Sad day to be a republican... 3rd party anyone?

Well just because some in your party are doing things you don't like doesn't mean the Republican idea is wrong.

Either way I think there needs to be multiple parties or no parties at all so we can focus on the issues.

Something that has kinda been bothering me lately though is that on paper a conservative should be all about smaller government and adhering to the constitution. Yet it seems like we're going the opposite direction?

[WRXtranceformed]

I wouldn't put myself on either side of the fence, but if a dumb motherfucker like Bush can influence so many people and convince them that he deserves to run a country, it gives me hope that I can be successful someday too.

[G.Irish]

Lee for Governor of Virginia 2020

[Feersty]

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[bassmangrammy]

Bush is a "good ol' boy" Hitler in the way he's influenced people to support military action and follow directives based completely on freedom rhetoric. FREEDOM!!!