Thanks for that Mike. i will take UnkelF's (and others)
directions as correct since he's been around for a long time and i'm a noob. now i know, and knowing is half the battle.
in conclusion, John good luck with the better brake management :lol:
2010 Civic Si
2019 4Runner TRD Off-Road
--------------------------
Past: 03 Xterra SE 4x4 | 05 Impreza 2.5RS | 99.5 A4 Quattro 1.8T | 01 Accord EX | 90 Maxima GXE | 96 Explorer XLT
ScottyB Wrote:in conclusion, John good luck with the better brake management :lol:
He wont have any problems when he retires that overweight piece to boulevard pimpin duties 
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
Evan Wrote:This really is a concept that you should get familiar with, because if you loose your brakes, all you have left is the engine.
Every event I mentally rehearse what I will do if my pedal goes to the floor.
right foot: continually pump brake pedal
right hand: pull ebrake up halfway and leave it
left foot: clutch in, put in next lower gear, clutch out quickly but not drop it
immediately do it again to the next gear
turn in very early to maximize pavement you have to work with
crank wheel to scrub off speed
all of this is obviously done extremely quickly one after another.
you should think about what you will do if you have zero brakes if you dont already. i even occassionaly practice it in the car with it off to develop muscle memory
i agree that emergency situation management is important, but i definitely dont recommend doing this until you have quite a bit of experience on track. this is something that is better suited for when your only other option is a tirewall. i think that a driver with less experience will think this is the only thing to do at the first sign of a hairy situation such as total brake failure as opposed to just brake fade.
1994 Ford Ranger
2004 Honda S2000
2007 BMW X3
Evan Wrote:no, the slowing is not from weight transfer. getting front end "bite" to turn into a corner is, but im not talking about that. there are many corners where you dont really need to brake, but you need to slow down a bit. depending on your car, hp and grip. T4 at summit may be that way for you, or entering the uphill esses.
I don't lift to slow down, that's the difference. The only time I lift is if I f'ed up the turn in/corner entry and I need to rotate the car, the rotation (what I was talking about) comes from weight transfer. If you are lifting you are not going as fast as you could be. If you are not using 100% traction then you are not going as fast as you could be, lifting does not use 100% of traction, only turning, acceleration or braking does.
--chad
white_2kgt Wrote:lifting does not use 100% of traction, only turning, acceleration or braking does.
It could... depending on where on the traction circle you are. Its just another tool to use - its not a always yes or no answer.
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
I'm gonna need some data. :wink: But thanks for checking w/ him Mike
white_2kgt Wrote:If you are lifting you are not going as fast as you could be. If you are not using 100% traction then you are not going as fast as you could be, lifting does not use 100% of traction, only turning, acceleration or braking does.
--chad
Wrong. You can stay on the limit of adhesion if you lift as you turn in. Typically this is going to be in either high speed kinks or sections of linked turns like turns 1-3 at Beaverun. Brakes of course can slow the car down faster but braking would slow the car down too much and put too much weight on the front in some situations.
It is this situation that is often a good place to try gentle left foot braking.
But then again maybe we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about when you may have to breathe off the throttle to maybe 75% or 50% throttle (give or take) in order to get the car to turn in. If you're talking about people who lift totally off the throttle and coast, then yeah I'd agree that's probably not the fast way to do it.
2018 Ducati Panigale V4
Past: 2018 Honda Civic Type-R, 2015 Yamaha R1, 2009 BMW M3, 2013 Aprilia RSV4R, 2006 Honda Ridgeline, 2006 Porsche Cayman S, 2012 Ducati 1199, 2009 Subaru WRX, 2008 CBR1000RR, 2009 Kawasaki ZX-6R, 2000 Toyota Tundra, 2005 Honda CBR600RR, 1996 Acura Integra GS-R, 1996 Acura Integra GS-R, 1997 Honda Civic EX
http://www.aclr8.com
G.Irish Wrote:or sections of linked turns like turns 1-3 at Beaverun.
You lift there?
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
In the stock GS-R on street tires, yes. With the beater race car, no.
2018 Ducati Panigale V4
Past: 2018 Honda Civic Type-R, 2015 Yamaha R1, 2009 BMW M3, 2013 Aprilia RSV4R, 2006 Honda Ridgeline, 2006 Porsche Cayman S, 2012 Ducati 1199, 2009 Subaru WRX, 2008 CBR1000RR, 2009 Kawasaki ZX-6R, 2000 Toyota Tundra, 2005 Honda CBR600RR, 1996 Acura Integra GS-R, 1996 Acura Integra GS-R, 1997 Honda Civic EX
http://www.aclr8.com
G.Irish Wrote:But then again maybe we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about when you may have to breathe off the throttle to maybe 75% or 50% throttle (give or take) in order to get the car to turn in. If you're talking about people who lift totally off the throttle and coast, then yeah I'd agree that's probably not the fast way to do it.
That's what I mean when I say 'lifting' no throttle application. In a mustang you are not generally on full throttle all the time 
.RJ Wrote:its not a always yes or no answer.
y'all are just running around in circles when the answer is right in front of you
I Am Mike
4 wheels: '01 RAV4 (Formerly '93 Civic CX, '01 S2000, '10 GTI, '09 A4 Avant)
2 wheels: '12 Surly Cross-Check Custom | '14 Trek Madone 2.1 105 | '17 Norco Threshold SL Force 1 | '17 Norco Revolver 9.2 FS | '18 BMC Roadmachine 02 Two | '19 Norco Search XR Steel (Formerly '97 Honda VFR750F, '05 Giant TCR 2, '15 WeThePeople Atlas 24, '10 Scott Scale 29er XT, '11 Cervelo R3 Rival, '12 Ridley X-Fire Red)
No longer onyachin.
Mike Wrote:.RJ Wrote:its not a always yes or no answer.
y'all are just running around in circles when the answer is right in front of you
what's that? track a civic so we don't have to worry about going fast enough to need to brake?
white_2kgt Wrote:Evan Wrote:no, the slowing is not from weight transfer. getting front end "bite" to turn into a corner is, but im not talking about that. there are many corners where you dont really need to brake, but you need to slow down a bit. depending on your car, hp and grip. T4 at summit may be that way for you, or entering the uphill esses.
I don't lift to slow down, that's the difference. The only time I lift is if I f'ed up the turn in/corner entry and I need to rotate the car, the rotation (what I was talking about) comes from weight transfer. If you are lifting you are not going as fast as you could be. If you are not using 100% traction then you are not going as fast as you could be, lifting does not use 100% of traction, only turning, acceleration or braking does.
--chad thats a nice perfect world idea to think you can maintain 100% of your adhesion limits, but in reality, if you only need to slow a little for a corner, using the brakes will overslow the car.
Read the skip barber book, it devotes a few pages just to the analysis that braking at a lower adhesion level for longer (or in this case, lifting) will result in much faster lap times than braking at adhesion limit for a shorter amount of time but overslowing the car (even by a little)
Evan Wrote:white_2kgt Wrote:Evan Wrote:no, the slowing is not from weight transfer. getting front end "bite" to turn into a corner is, but im not talking about that. there are many corners where you dont really need to brake, but you need to slow down a bit. depending on your car, hp and grip. T4 at summit may be that way for you, or entering the uphill esses.
I don't lift to slow down, that's the difference. The only time I lift is if I f'ed up the turn in/corner entry and I need to rotate the car, the rotation (what I was talking about) comes from weight transfer. If you are lifting you are not going as fast as you could be. If you are not using 100% traction then you are not going as fast as you could be, lifting does not use 100% of traction, only turning, acceleration or braking does.
--chad thats a nice perfect world idea to think you can maintain 100% of your adhesion limits, but in reality, if you only need to slow a little for a corner, using the brakes will overslow the car.
Read the skip barber book, it devotes a few pages just to the analysis that braking at a lower adhesion level for longer (or in this case, lifting) will result in much faster lap times than braking at adhesion limit for a shorter amount of time but overslowing the car (even by a little)
Sorry, I just don't buy it. Why would I lift off the throttle and enter a turn? If you are doing that and getting around, then you can enter the corner hotter and use your brakes to slow you down later and not just lift like a pansey. Why not just stay on the throttle another second, 1/2 second, whater, and then use brakes that can slow you down MUCH quicker than a lift? It just doesn't make sense. Even if you have to trail brake into the turn if will be faster.
white_2kgt Wrote:Sorry, I just don't buy it.
Well, be slow then
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
.RJ Wrote:white_2kgt Wrote:Sorry, I just don't buy it.
Well, be slow then
When you going to come play in Group 3?
white_2kgt Wrote:When you going to come play in Group 3?
They havent let us out in group 3 all year 
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
white_2kgt Wrote:well resist the urge to be cheap and don't instruct for one weekend
If you want to pay my entry fee, sure
(09-25-2019, 03:18 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I think you need to see a mental health professional.
chad, you're gonna get rolled by something with half the power.
I Am Mike
4 wheels: '01 RAV4 (Formerly '93 Civic CX, '01 S2000, '10 GTI, '09 A4 Avant)
2 wheels: '12 Surly Cross-Check Custom | '14 Trek Madone 2.1 105 | '17 Norco Threshold SL Force 1 | '17 Norco Revolver 9.2 FS | '18 BMC Roadmachine 02 Two | '19 Norco Search XR Steel (Formerly '97 Honda VFR750F, '05 Giant TCR 2, '15 WeThePeople Atlas 24, '10 Scott Scale 29er XT, '11 Cervelo R3 Rival, '12 Ridley X-Fire Red)
No longer onyachin.
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