Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!)

[.RJ]

For sure our country has survived great depressions and major wars and I hope we can survive an orange stain on the white house, but I dont think we have been in a situation where the administration has tried to dismantle the institutions built to serve the American people from the inside out - or a world where facts matter so little - or a country in which 40% of the country has been swallowed up by a cult of personality and turning our women into handmaids.

It all makes me worried for our future. I want us to be able to invest in healthcare, education, energy and infrastructure for future generations - and please take my tax dollars to do it as long as you are taking the fair share from the rich and closing the tax loopholes. For sure America will survive, but, I want us to continue to grow as a country and as a leader in the free world. I feel like this election cycle is a tipping point on whether we course correct or if we still havent hit bottom yet.

[Apoc]

I think for many, many years the intuitions were built to serve affluent, white, male Americans. I'm not saying we have to experience the current fuckery to get rid of that, but it's not like what we had 50 years ago was good for every American. The only real difference is you or I give a shit this time around whereas our grandparents probably thought shit like was normal. Nixon's jackassery or the internment of American citizens during WWII comes to mind. IMO, the only thing we're *really* seeing here is an attempt to further stack the deck.

That said, we're out of here as soon as we can manage it. We always wanted to live elsewhere and the last few years of everything has only strengthened our resolve. I just don't feel good about raising a kid in this country, which is sad, but I think that's more about this country being too large to actually get shit done than anything.

[CaptainHenreh]

I dont think we have been in a situation where the administration has tried to dismantle the institutions built to serve the American people from the inside out

May I have some examples?

[ScottyB]

I dont think we have been in a situation where the administration has tried to dismantle the institutions built to serve the American people from the inside out

May I have some examples?

call me out here if i'm wrong, but just off the cuff:

i'm trying to remember the last time a president installed a former attorney as EPA Chief who made a career on suing the EPA and then started deregulating the things that made the "protections" part of EPA a thing, as fast as he possibly could.  oops he was corrupt as shit, but no worries though, we have a former coal lobbyist in his place now.  i'm sure that has nothing to do with energy donors asking for rollbacks on protections.

also Devos, education secretary that wants to privatize and defund public education, which is sort of the opposite of how you solve problems in that department.  you can tell she's super passionate about education though, because of the way she is.  she definitely got the job because she's qualified, not because she's a huge GOP donor.

and we all love Ajit Pai, faithfully serving all big comm lobbyists, please form a line and pay up.  net neutrality is a very recent issue in our nation's history, but i've never seen an FCC gatekeeper more eager to throw the needs of the people under the bus.  or did i miss a worse case of this?  again, the only reasonable explanation is greed and donors asking for rollbacks in a time when we still have areas of the country that can't get access to basic high speed internet, and frankly, you gotta have that to educate and do commerce now.

and those are just a few people.  i'm still amazed at how the impeachment process went, with the massive obstruction on the GOP's side, under Trump's specific command in many cases.  Just a mockery of the process at large, one meant to serve the people in every way i can think of.

[Apoc]

I think the thing that has pissed me off the most was changing the SCOTUS filibuster override to a simple majority.

[HAULN-SS]

Your court case is far more likely to die at the federal appellate level, and Harry Reid got rid of the filibuster for that 7 years ago. Were you mad then, or paying attention?

[Apoc]

Your court case is far more likely to die at the federal appellate level, and Harry Reid got rid of the filibuster for that 7 years ago. Were you mad then, or paying attention?

Yes. Contrary to popular belief, not everyone who disagrees only pays attention half the time. Wanna give it another go?

[HAULN-SS]

It was a legitimate question, not a trap. People screamed from rooftops that was going to have lasting consequences and no one wanted to listen at the time.

[Apoc]

It was a legitimate question, not a trap. People screamed from rooftops that was going to have lasting consequences and no one wanted to listen at the time.

My apologies, then. I'm big on parliamentary procedure, which is why these things are most bothersome to me. Also, Harry Reid is a joke of a politician.

[CaptainHenreh]

I dont think we have been in a situation where the administration has tried to dismantle the institutions built to serve the American people from the inside out

May I have some examples?

call me out here if i'm wrong, but just off the cuff:

i'm trying to remember the last time a president installed a former attorney as EPA Chief who made a career on suing the EPA and then started deregulating the things that made the "protections" part of EPA a thing, as fast as he possibly could.  oops he was corrupt as shit, but no worries though, we have a former coal lobbyist in his place now.  i'm sure that has nothing to do with energy donors asking for rollbacks on protections.

also Devos, education secretary that wants to privatize and defund public education, which is sort of the opposite of how you solve problems in that department.  you can tell she's super passionate about education though, because of the way she is.  she definitely got the job because she's qualified, not because she's a huge GOP donor.

and we all love Ajit Pai, faithfully serving all big comm lobbyists, please form a line and pay up.  net neutrality is a very recent issue in our nation's history, but i've never seen an FCC gatekeeper more eager to throw the needs of the people under the bus.  or did i miss a worse case of this?  again, the only reasonable explanation is greed and donors asking for rollbacks in a time when we still have areas of the country that can't get access to basic high speed internet, and frankly, you gotta have that to educate and do commerce now.

and those are just a few people.  i'm still amazed at how the impeachment process went, with the massive obstruction on the GOP's side, under Trump's specific command in many cases.  Just a mockery of the process at large, one meant to serve the people in every way i can think of.

Those are...some examples.

I mean, if Rex Were King, the FCC, Department of Ed, and the EPA wouldn't exist. They appear to me to be largely do nothing bodies and are by definition anti-liberty, with the possible exception of the EPA, guess Nixon did something almost right. (Although regulating what we all exhale every minute of our lives as a pollutant borders on obscene.) I *still* don't know what the Department of Ed is supposed to do, seeing as states provide their own public schools and funding thereof.

If these are the best examples of "institutions built to serve the American people" and their poor administration the damning evidence of executive malfeasance then... *Sucks teeth*... I'll have to go back to snoozing. 

(Sidenote: I have no interest and I mean none whatsoever with the Government trying to regulate the internet in any way shape or form. It's as good as we find it specifically BECAUSE of the lack of regulation of the internet itself, and the shitty situation you find yourself of worrying about bandwidth limits and site whitelists has A: already happened and B: IS IN FACT THE FAULT OF THE GOVERNMENT FOR GRANTING MONOPOLIES IN THE FIRST PLACE, asking the government to fix a problem the government caused is the height of foolishness thank you for coming to my ted talk.)

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Also re: the filibuster, the Democrats were warned it was a bad idea, so here we are.

[Apoc]

Those are...some examples.

Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but the response feels more like categorical dismissal than entertaining another person's perspective on the administration's impact. That sucks the fun out of the debate. 

[CaptainHenreh]

Those are...some examples.

Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but the response feels more like categorical dismissal than entertaining another person's perspective on the administration's impact. That sucks the fun out of the debate. 

Yeah, I wasn't really trying to dismiss Scooty, but it definitely came out that way on re-read, my intent was to put into question that those organizations in particular "Serve the American People". It is my strong opinion they largely server themselves. My apologies to Scotty, I'm not trying to dismiss anyone's perspective.

I guess I'm just frustrated at the dialogue, where everything is OMG THE WORST because of, how did RJ put it? "The orange stain on the White House."

But life seems as good as it ever was under Obama, and objectively better than Bush II, and if the gravest sin of the current administration from an executive perspective is "Well, the FCC didn't integrate Net Neutrality, and sure access to the internet is more widely available and cheaper than it's ever been, it's still...bad." then I am trying to understand why not voting for Joe Biden is literal violence. (I have been told this, to my face. If I don't vote for Joe Biden I am committing violence against blacks, latin americans, native americans, women, and LGBT people.)

[Apoc]

I think maybe you've juxtapositioned the twitterverse onto debates here. I'm already on record as saying the triggering on both sides is laughable, but I also think we should give folks here the benefit of the doubt and wait until they prove conclusively they're being triggery. It's hard when everyone is so wrapped around the damned axle (I mean, maybe this is the real problem with this admin?) and I know I'm guilty of it, too.

[CaptainHenreh]

I think maybe you've juxtapositioned the twitterverse onto debates here. I'm already on record as saying the triggering on both sides is laughable, but I also think we should give folks here the benefit of the doubt and wait until they prove conclusively they're being triggery. It's hard when everyone is so wrapped around the damned axle (I mean, maybe this is the real problem with this admin?) and I know I'm guilty of it, too.

The veil is very thin,  you're probably right.

[ScottyB]

If these are the best examples of "institutions built to serve the American people"

oh they aren't, and please understand i should have probably asked that we agree on what constitutes the definition of an institution for the sake of conversation at the very start.  it was literally an off-the-top-of-my-head list of some low hanging fruit, arguably not institution but instead departments with some teeth in our ever'day lives, which i thought could be construed to show the overall lack of intent by the current administration to serve the American people in an actually useful capacity vs being completely self serving, at least far moreso than usual.  

there's fat everywhere that can be carved off, but that's a rant for another day.

not to mention i was speaking out of turn anyway - its RJ's dog in this hunt in the first place.

edit: i think the point i was trying to get at was - the examples i mentioned are indicators.  if you have a leader willing to place people in positions of influence (whether you think those positions should exist or not) who are THAT utterly unqualified, but are there because of their donor status or ability to manipulate lobby income, its a sign of a toxic, useless administration.  there are enough similar indicators all over that you can read that pretty far up the ladder.

[ViPER1313]

[quote='Apoc' pid='307957' dateline='1600818412']
[quote='CaptainHenreh' pid='307953' dateline='1600815002']
But life seems as good as it ever was under Obama, and objectively better than Bush II, and if the gravest sin of the current administration from an executive perspective is "Well, the FCC didn't integrate Net Neutrality, and sure access to the internet is more widely available and cheaper than it's ever been, it's still...bad." then I am trying to understand why not voting for Joe Biden is literal violence. (I have been told this, to my face. If I don't vote for Joe Biden I am committing violence against blacks, latin americans, native americans, women, and LGBT people.)

Well I guess there are good people on both sides, right Rex?

I’m tired of trying to teach empathy. If you can’t understand how Trumps politics undermine the groups above, I can’t teach you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CaptainHenreh]

Well I guess there are good people on both sides, right Rex?

I’m tired of trying to teach empathy. If you can’t understand how Trumps politics undermine the groups above, I can’t teach you.

Thank you for your contribution to the discussion.

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edit: i think the point i was trying to get at was - the examples i mentioned are indicators.  if you have a leader willing to place people in positions of influence (whether you think those positions should exist or not) who are THAT utterly unqualified, but are there because of their donor status or ability to manipulate lobby income, its a sign of a toxic, useless administration.  there are enough similar indicators all over that you can read that pretty far up the ladder.

That makes a lot more sense as a thesis, I guess I'm just jaded enough that I assume most cabinet positions have things like donor or lobby status taken into account for their appointment. I also think that many of his cabinet positions get undue criticism just because they were a Trump appointee. The USPS Postmaster General comes to mind.

I've taken a lot to asking people what, as an executive action, what 45 has done that has impacted a person's life, or the life of a loved one. I get he's gross and mean. I agree he is "un-presidential". But what policies has he put into place that have affected people in such a negative way that people like RJ think the USA is going to turn into "A Handmaid's Tale". (A metaphor I am very weary of, if I'm honest.)

"He says mean things! He's uncouth and hateful!"

Yes, I get that. I agree. He's not someone I like, or will vote for, or that I, like, want my children to aspire to be. But he hasn't done me any particular harm and I'm trying very hard to BE empathetic to people he HAS harmed, I just want to know who they are and what specific harm has befallen them at his command.

[Jake]

I'm with Adam on this, I'm tired of explaining. I'm tired of pasting this link in the hopes that the recipient will read it but here you go:

https://twitter.com/cmclymer/status/1134554802329915393

If that's too... whatever, then take a look at this near day-by-day breakdown of how things have gone for the LGBT community since 2016:

https://www.hrc.org/resources/trumps-timeline-of-hate

It's a little emotionally charged and I'm sure that'll be the first comment made but not-sorry everyone is a bit fired up.

A Trump vote is a direct dig at me, at least that is how I take it. It's a "fuck you, I've got mine" vote. The Democrats are not perfect and in an ideal world a LOT of things would be different. But a GOP vote has been and continues to be tremendously problematic for many communities, my own included.

There are plenty of people who will tell you otherwise, and I've never understood why you'd want to vote against your own self interests.

[CaptainHenreh]

here you go:

https://twitter.com/cmclymer/status/1134554802329915393

If that's too... whatever, then take a look at this near day-by-day breakdown of how things have gone for the LGBT community since 2016:

https://www.hrc.org/resources/trumps-timeline-of-hate

It's a little emotionally charged and I'm sure that'll be the first comment made but not-sorry everyone is a bit fired up.

A Trump vote is a direct dig at me, at least that is how I take it. It's a "fuck you, I've got mine" vote. 

Excellent, this is what I asked for. I'll go through these (there's a lot there) and try to grok the context around them.

I've no interest in voting for Trump, and won't be, but I do want to understand the specific harm he's done, since I have yet to have someone personally articulate one. Maybe I'll find it in these threads, thank you.

[.RJ]

If you want examples of the gov't institutions being dismantled from the inside out, start here:

https://www.amazon.com/Fifth-Risk-Michae...1324002646

And this was only a year or so into the administration - its gotten worse - just look at the USPS shit show.

There's also the acceleration of environmental destruction

https://www.outsideonline.com/2414117/tr...nds-record

https://www.outsideonline.com/2117796/do...-scorecard

Lastly - https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc...de/616424/ - have we ever in our history with a first term president looking down the barrel of losing election for a 2nd term, with their party working behind the scenes to create this scenario? If they put as much effort into helping America get past the 'rona as they have scheming to keep Trump in office, we'd be back to normal by now.

undermining elections and peaceful transitions of power erodes the very notion of democracy - what happens if they do not concede in the face of a landslide? riots in the streets -> more ICE/DHS violence -> riots -> the white house on fire... its not good for us.

If you want proof of specific harm - https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/07/...o-thin-air

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/20...14945e6b2a

I'll leave out the immigrant/ICE nonsense, since we can mostly thank Bush for that bullshit.