Alignment change v sway bars v springs

[mpg9999]

I am considering getting a progress rear sway bar. I have agx's anf hyperco's. My car still understeers. I rn a little toe in up front, and zero toe in the back. It was suggested to me to try some toe out in the back before before the new sway bar.

A bigger rear sway bar, stiffer springs in the rear, and toe out all increase oversteer, but do they do it in the same way (obviously they dont physically do it in the exact same way, but is the end effect the same)? Will one be more controllable? Will one way give more ultimate grip? Which should I try first? I hope you guys can get what im saying. Sometimes I suck at asking the right question.

[CaptainHenreh]

Why toe-in on the front? That makes no sense to me on a FWD car.

[mpg9999]

It helps the car stay stable going in a straight line. A little bit of toe out could help with turn in though, which would be nice. It also toe's in under load, so thats another plus for toe out.

Factory specs also call for toe in. I could be mistaken, but I think most vehicles call for toe in.

[.RJ]

What's the use of the car? If its all street use, then run zero toe and save tire wear.

[mpg9999]

What's the use of the car? If its all street use, then run zero toe and save tire wear.

Its my daily driver and weekend warrior. Thats why I ran zero toe in the back, and just a little bit of toe in up front. I could give the rear a little bit of toe out without significantly effecting tire wear.

[.RJ]

Toe out the front 1/16" per side and up the spring rate and swaybar size in the rear.

[mpg9999]

Toe out the front 1/16" per side and up the spring rate and swaybar size in the rear.

Thanks for the advice, but I'm really just trying to gain an understanding of whats the difference between adding toe out v a bigger rear sway bar, or a bigger rear sway bar v stiffer rear springs.

Either way, it looks like ill be getting a progress adjustable rear sway bar very shortly

[.RJ]

It all works together. Toe out up front will improve turn-in and decrease understeer on turn-in.

Bigger rear bar and spring rates will make the car looser in the corner. Loose is fast.

[mpg9999]

Thats still pretty general. I guess I really do suck at asking the right question.

[.RJ]

Bigger rear bar and stiffer springs all accomplish the same goal - the wheelrate dont care where it came from, for the most part and alot of it is just driver preference, testing/tuning, etc (between big springs or big bars or both). Increasing rear roll stiffness will increase front end grip, as a general rule.

[BLINGMW]

I can't come up with a good way to explain it, but I'd have to recommend you do the toe changes before buying anything. It's certianly the easiest and cheapest thing to do, free if done yourself. At the least, go with what RJ said, 16th out on the front, 0 rear. And with stock suspension, I'd max out negative camber (if it can be adjusted) too. See if you like it. Ignore the factory recommendations. But it's all at the cost of tire wear, so do whatever you can afford. :twisted:

Very simplified, a bar or stiffer springs would increase the roll stiffness of the car, and doing an increase on just the rear makes the front work harder. The stiffer the car, the faster it can react to changes, the more it makes your tires work, but the less forgiving it becomes. So while alignment changes may fiddle with the balance of the car like spings or a bar would, no alignment is going to make the car much more nimble or make much of a drastic change. At best, toe changes might just make initial turn in a bit more crisp and take out a bit of understeer, and extra camber is going to keep more tire on the ground when the car rolls.

[NTIman]

Most front wheel drive cars call for toe out,as the torque from the wheels will cause them to toe in while moving. Most RWD cars call for toe in,as the rolling resistance of the front wheels causes them to toe out. When you align the car,you can never really tell what is going on with the toe as the car is moving.

[.RJ]

you can never really tell what is going on with the toe as the car is moving.

Sure you can, just look at the camber and bumpsteer curve of the front suspension.

[PDenbigh]

GRM December (or november?) had a good article on this, might check that out too..