Police Argument (Split from How are you gentlemen? )

[Maengelito]

I would much rather see my taxpayer dollars go towards the police spending more time in the community, serving the people, assisting as necessary - end result would be narrowing the rift between "us" and "them."

i think that goes without saying, but perhaps thats for another time and a different thread.

[Evan]

There are over 42,000 traffic fatalities a year, 3 times more than homicides.
the police are not there to be your friend.
Enforcing traffic laws and thus reducing fatality risk is in the public's best interest.
The "look there is crime over there" argument against highway patrolling is extremely weak logic trying to justify your personal entitlement that you can break highway laws.

Not trying to turn this into a cop-bashing thread, but it really saddens me to see how the police spend more time harassing the average joe on the road rather than serving the public. Virginia is probably the worst at it - take for instance my visits to Norfolk. Area is pretty run down with some serious crime problems. Instead, the police are all over the interstate (on average I saw 12-20 people pulled over every commute on 6 miles of interstate I drove, which caused awful traffic - please note that people already drive pretty slow there as is). I would much rather see my taxpayer dollars go towards the police spending more time in the community, serving the people, assisting as necessary - end result would be narrowing the rift between "us" and "them."

[John]

There are over 42,000 traffic fatalities a year, 3 times more than homicides.
the police are not there to be your friend.
Enforcing traffic laws and thus reducing fatality risk is in the public's best interest.
The "look there is crime over there" argument against highway patrolling is extremely weak logic trying to justify your personal entitlement that you can break highway laws.

Not trying to turn this into a cop-bashing thread, but it really saddens me to see how the police spend more time harassing the average joe on the road rather than serving the public. Virginia is probably the worst at it - take for instance my visits to Norfolk. Area is pretty run down with some serious crime problems. Instead, the police are all over the interstate (on average I saw 12-20 people pulled over every commute on 6 miles of interstate I drove, which caused awful traffic - please note that people already drive pretty slow there as is). I would much rather see my taxpayer dollars go towards the police spending more time in the community, serving the people, assisting as necessary - end result would be narrowing the rift between "us" and "them."

Why are you drawing extremes? Going 10 over the speed limit is hardly risking a fatality. Fatalities are caused by many reasons, most of which are nearly impossible to police (think natural causes, sleeping motorists, stupidity). In the meantime, women are being raped, cars are getting stolen, and people are getting stabbed for $10, but the police are too busy sitting on the side of the interstate creating more hazards than anything (I can't tell you how many people I see get rear-ended as traffic slams on their brakes when they see a cop). This is one thing that California has right - less police on interstates to improve the efficiency of traffic flows. The difference is truly night and day.

It is a true misallocation of resources - period.

[.RJ]

less police on interstates to improve the efficiency of traffic flows. The difference is truly night and day

HOV enforcement really fucks up traffic flow on 66 - would be nice to send that away.

Evan, I'm not sure how you can say that writing speeding tickets, especially in Va, is anything other than revenue generation. Yes there are traffic fatalities and there should be cops out (I agree with things like sobriety checkpoints) but the level of enforcement in the communistwealth is ridiculous.

Edit - another thing that really rubs me is the level of revenue and punishment generated by a simple speeding ticket - 15+ over can land you in jail, with a loss of license for a year and several thousand dollars in fines. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck... surely there must be a more effective way to keep fatalities off the roads.

[John]

Especially considering how SLOW people in Virginia drive now.

[Evan]

There are over 42,000 traffic fatalities a year, 3 times more than homicides.
the police are not there to be your friend.
Enforcing traffic laws and thus reducing fatality risk is in the public's best interest.
The "look there is crime over there" argument against highway patrolling is extremely weak logic trying to justify your personal entitlement that you can break highway laws.

Not trying to turn this into a cop-bashing thread, but it really saddens me to see how the police spend more time harassing the average joe on the road rather than serving the public. Virginia is probably the worst at it - take for instance my visits to Norfolk. Area is pretty run down with some serious crime problems. Instead, the police are all over the interstate (on average I saw 12-20 people pulled over every commute on 6 miles of interstate I drove, which caused awful traffic - please note that people already drive pretty slow there as is). I would much rather see my taxpayer dollars go towards the police spending more time in the community, serving the people, assisting as necessary - end result would be narrowing the rift between "us" and "them."

Why are you drawing extremes? Going 10 over the speed limit is hardly risking a fatality. Fatalities are caused by many reasons, most of which are nearly impossible to police (think natural causes, sleeping motorists, stupidity). In the meantime, women are being raped, cars are getting stolen, and people are getting stabbed for $10, but the police are too busy sitting on the side of the interstate creating more hazards than anything (I can't tell you how many people I see get rear-ended as traffic slams on their brakes when they see a cop). This is one thing that California has right - less police on interstates to improve the efficiency of traffic flows. The difference is truly night and day.

It is a true misallocation of resources - period.

lol, [/i]Im[/i] the one drawing extremes?

Instead, the police are all over the interstate (on average I saw 12-20 people pulled over every commute on 6 miles of interstate I drove, which caused awful traffic - please note that people already drive pretty slow there as is).

I grew up in that area. Ive never seen more than 2 cops sitting on the side of the road the whole drive to the beach.

Ive never gotten pulled over for going 10mph over.

Department of Transportation has some very interesting statistics on how a difference of 10mph does in fact yield more traffic fatalities.
again, get your head out of your own little world of entitlements. You dont get to break the law just because you think you can drive safely however fast you want.

I really didnt expect the kind of extreme logical fallacy of the "there is crime so I can drive as fast as I want" from you.

Im not a fan of traffic laws either, but Im not naive enough to complain that the police have no right to enforce them.

[.RJ]

Department of Transportation has some very interesting statistics on how a difference of 10mph does in fact yield more traffic fatalities.

Can you share them?

I suspect its a case of correlation, not causation but I'd have to see them.

Im not a fan of traffic laws either, but Im not naive enough to complain that the police have no right to enforce them.

The enforcement isnt so much of a problem as the nature of their enforcement as revenue generators - at least to me.

[Evan]

HOV enforcement really fucks up traffic flow on 66 - would be nice to send that away.

Evan, I'm not sure how you can say that writing speeding tickets, especially in Va, is anything other than revenue generation. Yes there are traffic fatalities and there should be cops out (I agree with things like sobriety checkpoints) but the level of enforcement in the communistwealth is ridiculous.

oh come on, Im the first to go on a rampage against revenue generation like the new increased penalties, but enforcing traffic laws proven to be in the publics best interest is hardly "anything other than revenue generation"

(you want to see fucked up traffic flow? take away HOV on 66...)

Edit - another thing that really rubs me is the level of revenue and punishment generated by a simple speeding ticket - 15+ over can land you in jail, with a loss of license for a year and several thousand dollars in fines. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck... surely there must be a more effective way to keep fatalities off the roads.

(speaking of extremes.......)
so present a solution, and dont call me Shirley.
until then, the complaining about cops on the side of the road is transparent as selfish "Im entitled to drive as fast as I want"

[John]

I grew up in that area. Ive never seen more than 2 cops sitting on the side of the road the whole drive to the beach.

Things have changed considerably there.

Department of Transportation has some very interesting statistics on how a difference of 10mph does in fact yield more traffic fatalities.

again, get your head out of your own little world of entitlements. You dont get to break the law just because you think you can drive safely however fast you want.

I really didnt expect the kind of extreme logical fallacy of the "there is crime so I can drive as fast as I want" from you.

Im not a fan of traffic laws either, but Im not naive enough to complain that the police have no right to enforce them.

Entitlements? Far from it. I simply want to get from point A to point B without having to deal with awful traffic induced by overzealous traffic enforcement. There are many other problems of greater magnitude than somebody exceeding the speed limit. And nowhere did I mention that police have no right to enforce traffic laws, I'm simply saying they're fighting the wrong battles. It also pisses me off to no end when I need a basic service that the police are supposed to provide, yet at their discretion they determine they'd rather not do the paperwork. It's obvious their priorities are in the wrong places.

[Evan]

The enforcement isnt so much of a problem as the nature of their enforcement as revenue generators - at least to me.

so you propose enforcing them by...... asking people nicely?

[HAULN-SS]

just an FYI - I got a ticket for +7 on I-81 going between roanoke and JMU. Talk about a bogus ticket.

[ScottyB]

the level of enforcement in the communistwealth is ridiculous.

must be a NoVa thing. sure we have some righteous cops in the southwest/piedmont but it's never been a big deal.

[.RJ]

oh come on, Im the first to go on a rampage against revenue generation like the new increased penalties, but enforcing traffic laws proven to be in the publics best interest is hardly "anything other than revenue generation"

Do you know who is doing HOV enforcement? VSP officers on overtime. They cant work overtime without "earning their keep" so they do things like HOV enforcement.

I use 66 every damn day, and the worst of the worst is cops sitting on the side of the road and walking out in to traffic - this screws up the traffic patterns more than anything else. The same goes with cops on on/off ramps as cars pile back up out onto the highway. Expanding 66 out to 4 lanes all the way out to haymarket has done more for traffic flow than HOV ever has. How is this enforcement in the publics best interest? The very thing created to encourage car pooling/motorcycle riding/hybrid purchases now brings all 4 lanes to a screeching halt. Well done.

so present a solution, and dont call me Shirley.
until then, the complaining about cops on the side of the road is transparent as selfish "Im entitled to drive as fast as I want"

If they want to enforce speeding fines, then do it in a manner that fits the 'crime'. When a simple speeding ticket carries higher penalties than drug possession, then there's a problem.

Reduce the fines to a reasonable level. Well then you ask, where's the reset of the revenue going to come from? Raise gas taxes and spread the cost out across all residents - those that drive more, pay more. Thats MY solution.

so you propose enforcing them by...... asking people nicely?

With reasonable fines and realistic speed limits.

If I got a speeding ticket for doing 80 in a 65... ok, give me a fine - I am ok with that. Really. But it shouldnt be $2000. $200? Ok... pay up, the state makes some money, everyone on their way.

[ScottyB]

just an FYI - I got a ticket for +7 on I-81 going between roanoke and JMU. Talk about a bogus ticket.

maybe they were having a "slow" day?

that area of 81 is ripe with places for them to hide, i rarely ever sped through there.

[Ginger]

FWIW - I think the accident/paperwork thing is a moral hazard creating from the insurance system and the penal system both relyingon the other for effective punishment and deterrence. The end result being that nobody really does an effective job at much of anythig... not just that police are 'being lazy.'

[G.Irish]

Although HOV enforcement snarls traffic if you didn't have it people would just cheat all the time and HOV would be useless anyway.

Speed traps and what not are f'ed up but at the same time its hard to say if the police are not catching other types of crime because of speeding ticket enforcement. Its certainly probable that it happens sometimes but I don't know how prevalent it is. One would have to have some detailed statistics to be able to determine either way.

[John]

FWIW - I think the accident/paperwork thing is a moral hazard creating from the insurance system and the penal system both relyingon the other for effective punishment and deterrence. The end result being that nobody really does an effective job at much of anythig... not just that police are 'being lazy.'

Yes and no. In my 2nd example, it was a perfect example at how I have a "moral hazard" to fake my condition to have things done correctly. Unfortunately, that would have added thousands on to her insurance claim thus driving up insurance rates for everybody. I agree the entire system is broken...

[.RJ]

if you didn't have it people would just cheat all the time and HOV would be useless anyway.

I disagree. If you knew you werent going to get caught, maybe there's a small increase but I will take that any day over the enforcement that backs up traffic.

[G.Irish]

if you didn't have it people would just cheat all the time and HOV would be useless anyway.

I disagree. If you knew you werent going to get caught, maybe there's a small increase but I will take that any day over the enforcement that backs up traffic.

I dunno, I guess outside of the beltway its different but inside the beltway there is a very clear difference in traffic before and after its HOV only. So for instance if I come home before 4 o'clock there's a bunch of traffic. 4:30, easy sailing. After 6:30, bunch of traffic.

If everyone knew they could cheat on HOV then the traffic probably would be steady the whole afternoon until it lets up in the evening. Take the cameras at the tolls. If people knew they could run them and not get caught they'd run them all the time.

Outside of the beltway I don't know because there's only one HOV lane. That might be a failing of design of the HOV lane more than its an issue with enforcement. I think sooner or later though infrared cameras are just going to start giving the tickets rather than cops. I imagine we'll probably see that with speeding too.

[.RJ]

If you dont announce a reduction in enforcement, I dont think the traffic patterns will change.

Eventually, people may start to figure this out but you only need a few heavy enforcement days a year to remind them.