A Jourey of 1,000 Miles

[Ginger]

I'll go back to what I said in Mike's thread... if you haven't had this discussion with the people the would end up caring for you then you don't belong on a bike. If they're not okay with bearing the burden then tell them, before you get hurt, that you don't expect them to.

I didn't quote the whole passage, but I don't think it's fair to accuse me of being a flighty-idiot who just hopped on a bike without thinking about the ramifications. Just over a month ago the person who would have taken care of me if I were hurt, and was relatively accepting of that fact, moved out of state. That made the circumstances of my riding change - leaving only my mother to take care of me if I were hurt.

Saying "I don't expect you to take care of me" doesn't relieve anybody of anything, though. As RJ pointed out, family is family and they will take care of you. If not my mom, then who?

[Apoc]

Saying "I don't expect you to take care of me" doesn't relieve anybody of anything, though. As RJ pointed out, family is family and they will take care of you. If not my mom, then who?

Umm... yourself? If we're talking about financial responsibility, we all know I wouldn't ride without the ability to care for myself afterwards (insurance, disability). If we're talking about changing my diaper, I have people who would step up. If you don't have the financial coverage, then maybe riding isn't for you. If your mom is the only person to change your diaper then load your crippled ass into a truck and ship you to Alabama!

[.RJ]

(yes I'm quoting out of order)

what would we do if he were a Veg, or killed?

I'd rather go out having enjoyed things, instead of enclosing myself in a what-if safety bubble, but thats just me. I'm not saying thats what you're doing - just my view on the matter.

The disapproving party is asking me to avoid a documentedly high-risk activity because of the burden it could impose on her

I hate to point on the obvious, but having two kids imposes a gigantic burden on one's life - more than any other change - I dont feel like I need to make a list of them. Does your mom say the same thing about your sister going to an expensive private school, that its a burden that the family has to pay for the education? You cant have kids and expect them to leave the house and be totally self sufficient as soon as they can drive. See below about motivations...

When the only person capable of taking care of me has a very strong opinion against the hobby, that's something I've got to seriously consider.

Does your mom dislike the motorcycle riding because its high risk? Or because she doesnt like motorcycles/motorcyclists/etc? Thats an important distinction - because if she wouldnt feel that it was a burden to care for you if you got hurt doing some other high risk activity (say, you enjoyed skydiving instead of riding) then I'd say that her motivations arent very clear.

I think that fact that they're willing to take care of you IF there was some sort of accident that required someone to care for you makes me believe that her objections to motorcycles arent as big as she makes it sound.

Its pretty clear that my mom hates motorcycles, among many other things I do because thats what my dad is/was into - I dont worry about her objections too much.

[Apoc]

...and before the "you haven't experienced it so you can't know" comes out...

I've been cut out of my race car and taken to the hospital for neck x-rays on a backboard with a collar on so I've been through a potentially serious situation as a result of a high-risk hobby before.

[Maengelito]

If we're talking about changing my diaper, I have people who would step up.

would it be marge, lois or ren?

[Ginger]

Umm... yourself? If we're talking about financial responsibility, we all know I wouldn't ride without the ability to care for myself afterwards (insurance, disability).

Umm - hi, I'm not an idiot. I have excellent medical care. Seeing first hand how medical care treats completely or partially disabled out patients, though, it's very obvious that patients very obviously need more than insurances offer. You mentioned another sentence later about people stepping up - the whole point of this is that my people who would step up disapprove of the activity. I also can't just up and move to Alabama for a lot of reasons.

Pausing here, I feel like certain people here often like to accuse me of not having thought through the obvious. See Chris' effective "didn't you think about this shit before?", "didn't you think about having medical care?" etc. And now I'm catching flak for reevaluating my risky activity on the people that care about me. The "Andrew is dumb, so start at the lowest denominator" attitude, if fun to joke about, is obnoxious in conversation.

I'd rather go out having enjoyed things, instead of enclosing myself in a what-if safety bubble

I'm glad you feel this way... but it compeltely skirts the issue at hand.

Does your mom say the same thing about your sister going to an expensive private school, that its a burden that the family has to pay for the education?

Does this even need to be answered, really?

Does your mom dislike the motorcycle riding because its high risk? Or because she doesnt like motorcycles/motorcyclists/etc? Thats an important distinction - because if she wouldnt feel that it was a burden to care for you if you got hurt doing some other high risk activity (say, you enjoyed skydiving instead of riding) then I'd say that her motivations arent very clear.

And I'd say you're making assumptions that aren't accurate. She's asking me to stop the activity because of it's documented reputation for being high risk.... as stated before.

To use your example from above, my step father used to skydive. She was equally uncomfortable with that.

The bottom line is that taking part in this activity without considering her opinion is selfish. To that end, what I posted about reevaluating whether or not I ride on the street, and I will continue to ride on track no matter what, is something I'M considering. It's not really up for public debate... so, uhm, this is going to drag out a long way and have little effect on anything if we keep it up, so we might as well stop.

[Ginger]

...and before the "you haven't experienced it so you can't know" comes out...

I don't think anybody was going to say that. I wasn't.

[Evan]

If we're talking about changing my diaper,

thanks for that mental image.
anyone know a good lobotomist?

[.RJ]

Does this even need to be answered, really?

I was just throwing it in the ring - and not as an andrew's sister joke. When you have kids you introduce an incredible burden on your life, and often of the rest of your family - so its a bit selfish to then look at them and accuse them of burdening you. Know what I'm getting at? If you werent involved in something 'high risk' then you're not suddenly off the hook of being at risk of burdening your family in some way.

To use your example from above, my step father used to skydive. She was equally uncomfortable with that.

That makes sense then.

The bottom line is that taking part in this activity without considering her opinion is selfish

There's nothing wrong with taking this under serious consideration/discussion with your family - its more than I've done, at least.

You could continue the discussion with them and agree to wear your gear at all times, wear better gear, up your medical coverage/insurance, install auxiliary lighting and attempt to reduce the potential for serious injury as best you can. You've had several accidents on your own and walked away, and now after being hit by a minivan you were also able to walk away from with minor injury - so while the risk is there, we dont end up in the ER every time we fall off.

[Apoc]

Pausing here, I feel like certain people here often like to accuse me of not having thought through the obvious. See Chris' effective "didn't you think about this shit before?", "didn't you think about having medical care?" etc. And now I'm catching flak for reevaluating my risky activity on the people that care about me. The "Andrew is dumb, so start at the lowest denominator" attitude, if fun to joke about, is obnoxious in conversation.

It's not clear from your statements that you had thought through the obvious. In fact, from your statement below, it seems quite the contrary. Mike said exactly the same thing and admitted that he was stopping because he hadn't thought it through the first time.

Had I thought of my mom having to take care of me before? No, she brought that up when I told her about the accident and I hate to admit it, but she's got a point.

You have this perception that everyone discounts you and never listens to anything you have to say when in fact I was basing that off your own words. No one called you dumb, just questioned your thought process... and I'll say it again... from your own words.

[G.Irish]

Well if the concern is family members having to support you in the event of significant injury that requires prolonged recovery why not just get supplemental insurance? You can get insurance that will cover your salary, pay for physical therapy, and pay for extended hospital stays.

As far as the risk:reward ratio, I have to think that the chances of actually ending up on life support for a prolonged period are not that high. Something like 1 in 100,000 motorcyclists [2003] will get killed in an accident, I seriously doubt that significantly more end up vegetables.

If supplemental insurance is cost prohibitive or doesn't allay the fear that someone else would have to take care of you then I guess one shouldn't ride.

[.RJ]

[Apoc]

That's a good segue to Turducken... let's go whore that thread.

[D_Eclipse9916]

Well if the concern is family members having to support you in the event of significant injury that requires prolonged recovery why not just get supplemental insurance? You can get insurance that will cover your salary, pay for physical therapy, and pay for extended hospital stays.

As far as the risk:reward ratio, I have to think that the chances of actually ending up on life support for a prolonged period are not that high. Something like 1 in 100,000 motorcyclists [2003] will get killed in an accident, I seriously doubt that significantly more end up vegetables.

If supplemental insurance is cost prohibitive or doesn't allay the fear that someone else would have to take care of you then I guess one shouldn't ride.

You apparently are just thinking of money? Thats a small part of the burden you place on your family members by doing high-risk activities. Theres a balance where you have to decide wether the activity is worth that chance of a burden on your family, MOST OF ALL EMOTIONALLY. Just because you have insurance you think you can take care of yourself? You think they wont drop everything to see you in the hospital and all the emotions they have to go through that you could have possibly died? Money is definitely NOT the biggest factor here, and if you think that you can possibly ever free yourself from burdening your family when you get hurt, your dead wrong. When my father died, everything financially was taken care of, but that was not even close to my mind the burden he placed on my family. And we dont view it as a burden but it was, to this day it still hurts and is a lasting memory.

So before you can be selfish about yourself and think that you can somehow not burden your family in a large way by taking care of finances or telling them not to come or make decisions, think about how they feel towards you. They are family, wether or not you made all the preparation in the world, something happens to you wether fatal or not, the emotional impact it will have on them is more than you could ever imagine.

Edit: If Ginger decides that it isnt worth the risks wether financially, emotionally or any other reasons, who are you to give him shit about it? Ginger, at least you can put it past yourself that your not the only one impacted wether or not you prepare everything in the world.

[G.Irish]

Well if the concern is family members having to support you in the event of significant injury that requires prolonged recovery why not just get supplemental insurance? You can get insurance that will cover your salary, pay for physical therapy, and pay for extended hospital stays.

As far as the risk:reward ratio, I have to think that the chances of actually ending up on life support for a prolonged period are not that high. Something like 1 in 100,000 motorcyclists [2003] will get killed in an accident, I seriously doubt that significantly more end up vegetables.

If supplemental insurance is cost prohibitive or doesn't allay the fear that someone else would have to take care of you then I guess one shouldn't ride.

You apparently are just thinking of money? Thats a small part of the burden you place on your family members by doing high-risk activities. Theres a balance where you have to decide wether the activity is worth that chance of a burden on your family, MOST OF ALL EMOTIONALLY. Just because you have insurance you think you can take care of yourself? You think they wont drop everything to see you in the hospital and all the emotions they have to go through that you could have possibly died? Money is definitely NOT the biggest factor here, and if you think that you can possibly ever free yourself from burdening your family when you get hurt, your dead wrong. When my father died, everything financially was taken care of, but that was not even close to my mind the burden he placed on my family. And we dont view it as a burden but it was, to this day it still hurts and is a lasting memory.

So before you can be selfish about yourself and think that you can somehow not burden your family in a large way by taking care of finances or telling them not to come or make decisions, think about how they feel towards you. They are family, wether or not you made all the preparation in the world, something happens to you wether fatal or not, the emotional impact it will have on them is more than you could ever imagine.

I don't buy that at all. Everyone is going to die one day. Death is just as much a part of life as birth. Some people get all tripped up and bent out of shape over it but it is inevitable. Everyone has to deal with it at some point and everyone will succumb to it at some point. If someone's number comes up earlier than normal, shit happens. People deal. Life goes on. I refuse to live in fear because people will be sad if I'm gone. People will always be sad, people will always die. What is important is that people have lived and that I've made the most of my time on Earth. That philosophy may not work for everybody, and that's fine too. Those people can sit on the couch and be safe.

I'm not saying people should be reckless with no concern for the consequences. So if someone chooses to do something that is dangerous they should do what they can to mitigate the risk.

Sorry but a 1 in 100,000 chance of death is not going to stop me. That's only 3 times more likely than getting struck by lightning, and you don't see me calling in sick every time its cloudy outside. In fact, I have a much better chance of getting murdered than I do of getting killed in a motorcycle accident. Hey, everyone who is not wearing a bullet proof vest every day is unnecessarily risking leaving their loved ones in mourning. Come to think of it, everybody should wear combat helmets every day too.

So unless you advocate that I should move to the country, never cross the street, wear a bulletproof vest, and never ride in cars, I don't see how anyone can truthfully say that somehow someone I or anyone else shouldn't be riding a motorcycle because of the 1 in 100,000 chance of death.

If I had kids it might be different, because I have a responsibility to raise them. But I'll evaluate the risk when the time comes.

Edit: If Ginger decides that it isnt worth the risks wether financially, emotionally or any other reasons, who are you to give him shit about it? Ginger, at least you can put it past yourself that your not the only one impacted wether or not you prepare everything in the world.

Nobody is giving him shit about it, people are simply discussing things. If he didn't want to discuss it he either would not have posted anything about it or would not respond. The whole point of us discussing accidents and our thoughts on riding is so people can reason things out and make decisions about what they want to do.

[Apoc]

I know it's completely OT and everyone hates grammar Nazis but I've noticed it in more than a few posts and it drives me nuts.

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(forum software can't handle the apostrophe)

Andrew, I hope your situation ends satisfactorily and you're back on the road again soon.

[Ginger]

Aww, Chris, you're a sweetheart. I've been back on the road since.. the same day. Owning 3 bikes will do that So, 1 totaled, 1 down for adjustments, and I'm still riding the retard bike.

Whether or not I'll continue to ride on the street is a decision I haven't made yet. There's a point I'm trying to make that I'm either unable to properly convey, or people aren't understanding for the sake or argument. Either way, it's a point that I understand and will factor accordingly. That's all that really matters, and why I didn't respond to this a while ago. I won't quit riding altogether, I'll still ride on track [and maybe doing that will make riding fun again for me], but the street is another story.

G's numbers are a little off (b/c they refer to death in one paragraph, as cited, and just "an accident" in another). But I think it's apparent that I'm not worried about death in this whole matter (lots of folks end up temporarily disabled that don't end up dead, no question about that). Every single motor cyclist runs the risk of an accident, that's definitive... and you're not that unlikely to be hit by another vehicle (I mean, c'mon, I haven't been murdered lately). Long story short - although you're not necessarily that likely to end up dead, that was never my point to begin with.

Your chances of having an accident? RJ, G, Mikey, Myself, Matt, Chris, my friend Alex, my Dad, Navin, most riders that I know, we've ALL had accidents. I've been very lucky so far, so have most of you. I'd say your chances of being involved in an accident of some sort are pretty good. Whether you get really hurt? I guess it's by chance for the most part. Personally, though, I'm starting to feel like I'd rather hedge those chances by riding more on the track and less on the street. At least there a cager won't plow you with a truck from behind, t-bone you on the gas, or, like, be around. Sure, you've got other bikes and the risks associated with riding faster, but you've got run off, and a certain level of expectation of action from the other riders.

[Ginger]

But I drove today. Rain's not fun.

[Apoc]

I mitigate my risks by not using my motorcycle as transportation and would recommend the same. The more you ride, the more chance you're giving probability to catch up with you. If you save the street riding for nice days and rides in the sticks you're probably less likely to end up in a serious accident than if you're commuting every day.

[G.Irish]

G's numbers are a little off (b/c they refer to death in one paragraph, as cited, and just "an accident" in another).

I just forgot a word there. That said, one thing I just thought of is that I'm not sure if the statistic is divided by the number of riders or the population in general.

Your chances of having an accident? RJ, G, Mikey, Myself, Matt, Chris, my friend Alex, my Dad, Navin, most riders that I know, we've ALL had accidents.

The overwhelming majority of those accidents were caused by handlebar actuator malfunction. I think only two of them have been caused by a cager.

I've been very lucky so far, so have most of you. I'd say your chances of being involved in an accident of some sort are pretty good. Whether you get really hurt? I guess it's by chance for the most part. Personally, though, I'm starting to feel like I'd rather hedge those chances by riding more on the track and less on the street. At least there a cager won't plow you with a truck from behind, t-bone you on the gas, or, like, be around. Sure, you've got other bikes and the risks associated with riding faster, but you've got run off, and a certain level of expectation of action from the other riders.

No argument there. You ain't gonna hit a car on track.