VA Speeding Fines increasing...

[Ginger]

Yes, I'm aware of that. That doesn't mean that I have to see it as fair, though... or support increases which make those burdens even greater.

[Mike]

Yes, I'm aware of that. That doesn't mean that I have to see it as fair, though... or support increases which make those burdens even greater.

so what do you propose? individual tax plans?

[.RJ]

That doesn't mean that I have to see it as fair, though... or support increases which make those burdens even greater.

Well you can think whatever you want about it, but the bottom line is that you pay taxes and elected officials decide how to spread the costs out - supposedly at the best benefit for their constituents. And if by not supporting it you whine about it on the internets, good luck with that

[Ginger]

For example - everybody seems to think these ne fines are pretty darn absurd. They're absurd on their own legs, but it's made even worse if you think about the projects that the money is going to that are completely wasteful (not that the metro is completely wasteful, although I don't support dumping money into it). Just because the money is going into some kind of public transit works doesn't mean it's being used for any kind of benefit to anybody. So double up the reasons why the civil fines suck.

[Ginger]

And if by not supporting it you whine about it on the internets, good luck with that

Well, come on, we're really ALL whining about these fines on t3h intArwebs... it's not just me

Besides, you're just citing the idea that the elected official has my best interest at heart to poke at me. You and I both know they've got no such thing in mind at all.

Besides - RJ can't turn right!

[.RJ]

Just because the money is going into some kind of public transit works doesn't mean it's being used for any kind of benefit to anybody. So double up the reasons why the civil fines suck.

I think more effective transportation solutions are the one thing that affects everyone positively. Other than the tax $$ spent, there's really no downside. If there were a tax on the table that taxed everyone across the board the same then I wouldnt have any problem with it at all. Maybe if you were a hermit and never left the house you wouldnt be affected.... but everyone uses the roads, HOV, and public transit (to varying extents).

These new civil fines are targeting specific groups to benefit the greater good, and that is a load of horseshit.

[G.Irish]

I should qualify - by public transit I mean government operated.

I still don't think it's fair, however, to force payment of that system on people that don't use it. Theoretically I see I benefit from it, but as far as my dollar goes it's a waste. I understand your point, but I don't see it as even remotely fair to force operational costs on people that don't choose them.

That doesn't really make sense. You don't use the roads in Southwest Virginia but you still pay for those right? I suppose the VA government could divide the tax out by region so that one region doesn't fund stuff in other regions. Either way, transportation is a system.

Saying you don't want to pay for mass transit because you don't use it would be like saying you don't want to pay for roads that you don't typically go on because you don't use them. But each component of the system contributes to your experience using your little part of the system (at least in the DC Metro area). Without the metro you'd easily be looking at 2 hours more of traffic per day, if not more. More gridlock on holidays and special events in the city too.

How about the government taxes you extra for riding a motorcycle since you can use the HOV lanes? Other people rarely use them, why should they have to pay for that road?

[Ginger]

Other than the tax $$ spent, there's really no downside.

There's pretty much no guarantee that the money is going to anything positive, though. Spending tax dollars is a giant moral hazard game and there's real guarantee that whatever some silly legislature dreams up to possibly be a good idea will even come close to the mark. And when they don't they'll jus spend more money to try something else... as opposed to a private company which has spent it's own money and taken on it's own risk to try and develop and effective solution. They've got a vested interest in success... what does a legislation have? A vested interest in making sure they aren't blamed for failures.

[JackoliciousLegs]

I don't see it as even remotely fair to force operational costs on people that don't choose them.

Well, then you'll need to move to a little island in the middle of nowhere then.Your tax dollars pay for all kinds of things that you'll never use. They also pay for things that you do use, along with everyone else.

Damn you RJ and your socialist mentality. Don't you know that taxes are a burden on the economy and an even bigger burden on the taxpayer? What good is the money you earn if you give it away to some silly government that thinks they can spend the money on me better than I can?!

[Ginger]

Just because the system exists doesn't mean I have to like it. Can I least get away with saying THAT?

And Jack - you really don't recognize that the government suffers from a problem of moral hazard? And FWIW - I never said I could spend the money better, but I don't see the government as the best intermediary or solution.

[Mike]

Just because the system exists doesn't mean I have to like it. Can I least get away with saying THAT?

yes, but you can't get away with saying "public transit is bad."

[.RJ]

There's pretty much no guarantee that the money is going to anything positive, though.

Ok, step off the idealistic soap box and tell me what traffic improvements in the region have not had a positive impact?

Just recently there's been quite a few that have had noticeable improvements in traffic flow:

- I-66 going to 4-lanes past manassas, soon to be out past gainesville
- On/Off ramps on Route 28, instead of 15 stoplights
- 395/495/95 Mixing bowl improvements
- Overpasses on the W&OD trail

These are just the major projects - there's been others as well, but I cant recall them off of the top of my head.

I think improving transit in the area is a good idea, but the revenue generation to support them is currently turning the area into a police state.

Edit: Case in point - I take HOV every day, from Route 7/Lee Hwy to Ballston/Rosslyn exits. I have not seen a single cop enforcing HOV all week. They're all out on 66 writing speeding tickets - and traffic will move plenty fast enough to pick people out of a line and hand out 15+ over reckless tickets.

Just because the system exists doesn't mean I have to like it.

Then move elsewhere? :dunno:

[Ginger]

Just because the system exists doesn't mean I have to like it. Can I least get away with saying THAT?

yes, but you can't get away with saying "public transit is bad."

Well, I still think it is. And it isn't fair to compare the DC metro to privatized systems elsewhere. I may not have elaborated enough, but I see government funded transportation systems as a complete waste of resources. If the need exists why would it be silly to assume that a privatized contribution would do it better?

[JackoliciousLegs]

Spending tax dollars is a giant moral hazard game and there's real guarantee that whatever some silly legislature dreams up to possibly be a good idea will even come close to the mark. And when they don't they'll jus spend more money to try something else... as opposed to a private company which has spent it's own money and taken on it's own risk to try and develop and effective solution. They've got a vested interest in success... what does a legislation have? A vested interest in making sure they aren't blamed for failures.

Right, because if the government fails, no one cares? Great attitude. :roll:

[.RJ]

Well, I still think it is. And it isn't fair to compare the DC metro to privatized systems elsewhere.

Why not? They both do the same job, and you dont have any numbers that condemn the DC area Metro to be a money bleeding operation.

I may not have elaborated enough, but I see government funded transportation systems as a complete waste of resources

Only because you dont use it... I suppose you've never been to NYC? You can get anywhere in the city, cheap and fast with public transit. No need for a car or cab ride ever. If that is a waste of resources, then I dont know what a good use of them would be. Should the local gov't appoint a sherpa to carry your sundries as well?

[Ginger]

Right, because if the government fails, no one cares? Great attitude. :roll:

And what do they do when they don't meet their goals? Find ways to raise more money so they can.. like this terrific idea of civil fines so they they won't be known as the legislature that raised taxes.

[Ginger]

There's no way I'm ever going to reach kind of semblance of my point here and if I ever do I'll be damned as a idealistic free market idiot. So i'm going to stop responding to everybody that's telling me I'm dumb and just give up.

[Mike]

GTFO, ginger!

[.RJ]

And what do they do when they don't meet their goals?

Get voted out.

You cant idealize gov't spending. Its a corrupt mess.

[Goodspeed]

the area makes it more tolerable - compensating in different areas for the higher fines. have you ever driven the Pacific Coastal Highway, or atleast ridden in a car that has? It's amazing and the fact that you can pretty much ride all year round with little threat of rain is pretty nice.

Traffic is just as bad - if not a little better than the DC area. The drivers aren't as inconsiderate and generally they pay attention a *little* more. Not a lot, but noticeable coming from the DC area and driving in SD, LA and SF.

The increased fines and costs of living in the dc area is just another reason to leave it behind (atleast for a little while).

I've been up and down the coastal highway from SF to Seattle, and I agree it is amazingly beautiful. The Oregon coast is just amazing. I get what you're saying though, in the US you can't escape stupid policing and taxes, but at least you can move to a nice area. I'm just saying that SoCal isn't a gleaming beacon of beachfront living, it does have its social ills, and IMO I wouldn't find it a much better place to live than nova unless you can really afford to live in a nice area