just dreaming... educate me on what I should get please!

[BLINGMW]

ok ok this all sounds to me like poorly run schools. If there are noobs who are being timid and need lots of room (we all start somewhere), then why is passing in the corner allowed in that group? If Cornerspeed or some other group is where noobs should start out, then that's where my first school or two will be. I'll figure that out when I come to it.

Some of the things I'm hearing about these schools makes me wonder WTF is going on. Like Andrew stating at Jefferson circuit that in his intermediate group, "the track organizers explicitly ask you to pull your mirrors and NOT look behind you". Eh? That seems REALLY odd to me. If an intermediate group rider can't be expected to handle looking in his mirror and being aware of his surroundings, why is that the intermediate group? AND you all tape up your brake lights? Can an intermediate rider not handle sticking to his own braking points? And isn't it more imporatant that other riders get the chance to recognize that the guy in front of him is on the brakes? How is this not a recipe for disaster?

Can someone explain to me why those make sense for a bike when they are the opposite of what you'd do when tracking a car? Sure, there are a lot of opposite reactions to learn, things that are different when tracking a bike, but I can't for the life of me come up with a reason for these. No wonder it's a problem having slower bikes out there if no-one is using his mirror and everyone has tape over thier brake lights!

[.paul]

you should never look behind you at the track. its a requirement that in most track schools you have to have the mirror off.

in ALL beginner groups you can only pass on the straight, except colemans, but thast a different story. and they even designate which straights you can pass at.

when you are coming down the straight at summit main going 150mph - you do NOT have time to look bike or even cehck a mirror, and when you see brake lights your first reaction is to do what? brake - and that just ruins your whole line that you were going to take, and speed and so forth.

not seeing brake lights is not an issue, as well as not looking behidn you. you should always be looking ahead and the same goes for cars.

[BLINGMW]

when you are coming down the straight at summit main going 150mph - you do NOT have time to look bike or even cehck a mirror, and when you see brake lights your first reaction is to do what? brake - and that just ruins your whole line that you were going to take, and speed and so forth.

That's the craziest f'ing thing I've ever heard.[/colbert]

How come all us cagers are expected to and do check our mirrors at 120, 150, whatever down that same straight? And you want to know what my first reaction is when I see brake lights?

How far away is the guy?
If very close in front of me, then
check mirror
brake
if I've got a few lengths, then
maybe brake, maybe move out to pass, maybe all kinds of options

if red = kneejerk reaction to brake, again.... why are you in the intermediate class? Again, I've never done a bike track day, but I don't see how this makes any sense.

Good to know most of the beginner classes don't allow passing in the corners, I can at least see how not using mirrors and brake lights might be survivable in that situation since you're probably also not getting very close to one another.

[Mike]

question... when you're going 150mph do you front brake only? i'd imagine the rear would be almost weightless?

[Ginger]

You'll find that the mirrors thing is a pretty universal requirement. It's an extreme example, but I'll bet you've never seen a racebike with mirrors on it.

I can't state anything about guys riding their mirrors - there are probably a lot of considerations I don't know about. I will say that riding an average motorcycle around track is a lot more demanding that driving your average car around it. You've got to change your body position into three distinctly different postures over the course of one straight, deal with the track coming at you at speeds that will pretty much shock you for your first couple outings, and coordinate a not-explicitly-simple machine into a magnitude of different activities that it would rather not do - all at the same time. This isn't to say that driving a car around track is easy, I know that it can be a very difficult thing to do. One small lapse of concentration, like can happen checking your mirrors, could lapse into pending doom very quickly. One of my goals on track is to limit sensory inputs to what is absolutely required to go. No gear indicator, no speedometer, not even a tinted windscreen - Jefferson can get a hair touchy at 140mph. Do you even really want think about Summit Mains' straight?

Another consideration is that if you crash with mirrors attached to the bike they will break. They stick out and are pretty much the first things to hit the ground. Run off track in a car and you don't really have to worry about it... but laying a bunch of glass in the carousel could be a potentially bad thing.

I agree, though, that there are a lot of organizations that are Free Run Groups and tend to set themselves up for disaster. You'll find more organizations that are run more like a FATT than those that are run like Car Guys. Very well run organizations do exist, though, they're just a bit more expensive. In this you've either got to take a whole lot of personal responsibility or make sure you find a good group. Perhaps, and this is really just an idea, you're asked not to know where the rider behind you is so that you can remain predictable. I'll study a rider for a lap or two before I attempt a pass so that I know exactly what he'll do at each turn so I can minimize the risks in passing him... if he's riding his mirrors and trying to get out of my way, especially without and instructor in the seat next to him reminding him of what's proper, there's no telling which way he'll move to get out of my way.

My crash on Jefferson was caused because I forgot some track protocol. I can't fault anybody but myself for it. Novice isn't where I belong, though. Intermediate was a good pace for me, and by the time I found my rhythm a lot of guys were actually holding me up until I could get around them. So what do you do with a rider like me, who is too quick to run Novice, but can still forget things that haven't been drilled into me? I think that causes that most problems - I am definitely not alone in my abilities/knowledge standing.

[Ginger]

question... when you're going 150mph do you front brake only? i'd imagine the rear would be almost weightless?

Yes.

There are a group of riders that can use the rear brake to settle the bike during the on/off throttle transition and then transition into front only... or keep just the right amount of force for trailbraking on the rear. They're called professionals.

Don't use your rear brake.

[Evan]

The rearending I saw was at a race at Summit, guy knew he could deep brake and the guy behind him was determined to not let him get away. They made contact.

yeah, it was a race. That stuff happens when you are battling and while it sucks, it is to be expected sometimes.

But it sounds like you guys dont know the difference from a track day and a race. There is NO reason to ever be up the ass of some other track day newbie to the point where you may hit them.

Why do bikes cover up their brakelights anyway? A buddy of mine told me because it distracts other riders, which is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
Mirrors I dont get either, and I dont buy the rationale for taking those off either.

[Ginger]

Why do bikes cover up their brakelights anyway? A buddy of mine told me because it distracts other riders, which is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

I was told essentially the same thing. I can't say anything for it's validity... maybe there's another reason that I'm missing?

That said, I didn't miss the lights at all. Not having that indicator didn't hinder my ability to interact with the other bikes on track at all. To me, and this is ONLY me, brake lights or no brake lights is a non issue. There was one rider at Jefferson who used clear tape on his brake light and it actually really annoyed the crap out of me. It wasn't a danger to me, it was just obnoxious.

[stevegula]

ok ok this all sounds to me like poorly run schools.

Shit happens no matter what. Control riders are their to look for unsafe activity and talk to the rider so it doesn't happen again, but they can't prevent it. People fuck up. Cornerspeed says in their riders meeting (mandatory for everyone), don't just hop around between lines because you don't like the one you're on because you never know if someone is coming up on the line you want to switch to. Obviously not everyone pays attention because my situation happened.

Like Andrew stating at Jefferson circuit that in his intermediate group, "the track organizers explicitly ask you to pull your mirrors and NOT look behind you". Eh? That seems REALLY odd to me. If an intermediate group rider can't be expected to handle looking in his mirror and being aware of his surroundings, why is that the intermediate group?

If you're going slow enough to have time to look in your mirrors, you don't belong on the track. Especially in a sport where physical balance is everything and constantly looking around/behind you can disorient your brain and make you think you're unbalanced even if you aren't. Pay attention to where you're going, that's the only thing you can control.

AND you all tape up your brake lights? Can an intermediate rider not handle sticking to his own braking points? And isn't it more imporatant that other riders get the chance to recognize that the guy in front of him is on the brakes? How is this not a recipe for disaster?

Ever since I left beginner groups I haven't had time to look at anyone's brake lights. I'm either looking for my brake marker or I'm looking through the turn. And the brake lights get taped over not to cover them up, but so when you crash you don't leave behind shards of plastic everywhere that takes 10 minutes to clean up.

Can someone explain to me why those make sense for a bike when they are the opposite of what you'd do when tracking a car?

What happens when you panic in a car? Wheels lock up? Car spins out? Big deal, you go sliding off/around the track. Oh nos.

What happens when you panic on a motorcycle? You're probably on the ground. If you're lucky, you're sliding. If you're unlucky you're tumbling and breaking bones. What's the number one cause of panic on a motorcycle? Excessive speed. (you probably know all that comes after this because of your car hobby, it's probably just likely that you're not giving enough attention to the consequences) When your typical rider goes into a turn 1 mph faster than he's comfortable with he notices it, but he'll probably be ok. 2 mph faster and he's getting jittery and doubt is entering the mind. 3 mph faster and the rider is probably going to go into full-blown panic mode - object fixation, brake stabbing, standing the bike up, or just physically locking up until he crashes or comes out on the other end. From the mental point of view, speed is just perception. On your motorcycle looking through the turn isn't important just for knowing where to go, it's just as important for slowing everything down enough to not over excite your brain and induce panicking. If you're lookign 5 feet in front of you at a motorcycle, everything is going to look pretty damn fast. If you're looking 100+ft in front of you, it all seems so much easier.

That said, by the time most riders start on their brakes for a turn, they're already looking into the turn and not looking at the guy in front of him. You're trusting him to be a good rider and to be doing somewhat the same thing you're doing. Most times everything is cool. Last time I was at VIR North I was turning 1:48s in traffic that had riders going as slow as 2:05. Big deal, most of the time I can accomodate for that and get around them even when I'm pushing myself. But they're pushing themselves too, because they want to be faster. Sometimes they panic and make a mistake, and sometimes you're just not in the position to escape.

Ask Makoto Tamada and Kenny Roberts, Jr. KRJR torpedo'd Tamada in the last GP race. Shit happens.

The track is safer than the street, no question. And almost always, so long as you don't mess up, you won't crash. But you have to accept that you're participating in a sport that's inherently highly dangerous, and when you break the limit you could be breaking yourself. So either choose to not push yourself and have fun, or have fun pushing yourself and try not to take anyone else out when you crash (which isn't likely in Intermediate groups since you can't pass on the inside).

Peripheral vision is also amazingly key. Even though you're looking through a turn, if you've got a bike in your peripheral you better be able to see him and recognize what he's doing as well out of the corner of your eye.

[Ginger]

Mirrors I dont get either, and I dont buy the rationale for taking those off either.

Aside form I what I said about them above somthing else came to mind.

What good are they except when you're going in a straight line? You're definitely not going to use them when you're dragging hard parts along the ground. Your body is positioned so that you can't seem them when it's in proper form, anyways, and it's not like they'd do much good 45* to the ground.

Even in a straightawy mirrors on a motorcycle are almost completely trash. Anything over about 65mph and they vibrate because of the motor and the wind buffeting that you'll be lucky to make out anything in them at all.

Just a thought.

[.paul]

if red = kneejerk reaction to brake, again.... why are you in the intermediate class? Again, I've never done a bike track day, but I don't see how this makes any sense.

im in the intermediate class because beginner is too slow, and im constantly battling to get around them, and as much fun as it is, i would like to up my speed and my confidence, as my first race is coming up in september.

i do not have the reaction to brake if i see red, but a lot of noobs on bikes do. it is just like drivers who touch their brakes immediately when they see red brake lights.

even on my first track day i was freaking out wondering how i would know when to slow down and stop, you just do, you feel it out, you see with your eyes ahead of you as well as what type of motoin the bike in front or to the side of you is doing.

the scariest thing on my fristr track day was coming out of the oaktree at VIR and thinking that I am hauling ass, but then 4 bikes just come right past me and start braking hard. all i wanted to do was watch them, but i had to talk to myself.. literally say outloud, stop staring look through the turn idiot.

i constantly talk to myself while riding to make sure i am doing what i should be.

[Sijray21]

i constantly talk to myself while riding to make sure i am doing what i should be.

it's actually a very good practice that i found to help when i'm on track for HPDEs, although it may seem a little retarded :lol:

[Apoc]

Sounds to me like you track bikers can't handle information fairly well. Entering the braking zone of T1 at Summit Main 3 wide with 3 in front and 3 behind you at 150 mph and then come talk to me about "too much going on."

Ohhh nooeeesss.... brake lights!!11269

[.RJ]

Sounds to me like you track bikers can't handle information fairly well. Entering the braking zone of T1 at Summit Main 3 wide with 3 in front and 3 behind you at 150 mph and then come talk to me about "too much going on."

+1

Next, try the same scenario going down the chute at 110 with a car in the tires and a red flag coming out, and come back and talk about "too much information" because someone's brake lights are on. The amount of information you have to deal with on the track is probably less than a lot of the situations you face on the street - the information is just intensified.

I can see not using the brake lights because a riders body language will tell you what he's doing on track, which cant be seen in a car. But it shouldnt throw you off to the point where you target fixate and run into the back of them.

[Apoc]

I'm certain it's a slighty unfair comparison to compare car racing to motorcycle track days but... do riders need to be coddled more than they coddle cagers in DE? The risk of injury may be higher but come on, if you're talking about the dangers of closing speed, target fixation and outbraking someone than you're either not a beginner and shouldn't be sheltered or in over your head.

[stevegula]

Sounds to me like you track bikers can't handle information fairly well. Entering the braking zone of T1 at Summit Main 3 wide with 3 in front and 3 behind you at 150 mph and then come talk to me about "too much going on."

I'd imagine it gets pretty upsetting when you scratch your paint. Summit CCS/WERA races get 5-6 wide running through turn one on the first lap, I'm just glad I haven't been a part of that.

And I'm not arguing too much information, I'm arguing irrelevant information. You don't need mirrors at the track. If the guy behind you is faster, he'll pass you. If he isn't, who cares if he's there. Brake lights are just as useless. You're never looking at the bikes tail, so you'd never really see them any quicker than you'd notice the bike slowing down in your peripheral. But, it's a different scenario for braking because y'all can brake soo much harder than we can. So your world can be ended much quicker if the guy in front of you gets on the brakes before you expect.

I can see not using the brake lights because a riders body language will tell you what he's doing on track, which cant be seen in a car. But it shouldnt throw you off to the point where you target fixate and run into the back of them.

Body position can reveal a person's intentions in the racer group of a motorcycle track day, it doesn't always do it in the intermediate/beginner group. Because they may ride still sitting somewhat upright down a straight, especially a shorter one. So sometimes you have to look for a raising rear/diving front end or just pay attention to the fact that they're getting bigger fast.

And Apoc, you're pretty right. It's kind of unfair to compare car racing to moto track days. Obviously y'all that race know a hell of a lot more about what you're doing and you're also that much more concerned because you're competitive. Whereas on moto track days, unless you're in the expert/advance/racer group, you could be there just to have fun and speed without worries of a speeding ticket. That's honestly why I'm applying to get my racing license, to get out of Intermediate groups and to get into groups with more consistent riding so I can work on my consistency.

And maybe to impress Kaan's mom.

[BLINGMW]

It just all seems a little backwards to me. Situational awareness is VERY high priority when working your way up through HPDEs. Certianly more important than being fast is being safe.

And before we get into an off topic pissing match, let's just say for arguement's sake that tracking a car is just as dangerous as tracking a bike. And racing a car is just as dangerous as racing a bike. I hate to break it to you bike guys, but scratched paint or locking up tires and ending up in the grass aren't the worst thing that can happen to a car on track. Lifting on whatever last turn there is before the pit wall and hitting it sideways still going 100MPH or losing your brakes in T1, rolling in the sand and hitting the wall are at least as life threatening than any track related bike accident. Most of the times I see bikes in races go off, the guy tumbles, the bike tumbles, and he's hopping back up to get on it before he loses any more positions. Sweet! When a car loses it at that same speed, it's most likely going to hit something. Sure, it sucks flying through the air with nothing around you, with the risk of the bike breaking your limbs, but the advantage of having far less momentum is a HUGE advantage.

I can only assume, and I can agree with the fact that there's more to think about on a bike since your body is half the equation. And breaking traction is more dangerous. And I'm sure it's pretty overwhelming your first few times out. The question I'm asking boils down to situational awareness though. Doesn't a proffesional bike racer have lots of it? I bet he knows when and who is behind him at all times. Mirrors or not (and I'm sure they'd love a mirror, but I'm guessing it's only for aerodynamic advantages), he's using developed peripheral vision to stay aware of other riders, and I DO see them take a glance back now and then. At the same time, he knows what the bike ahead of him is doing, and has brain left over to look for flags, assess changing track surfaces, and even scan for hot chicks in the crowd. No different than a proffesional car driver. Not only is it a safety issue, but how else are you going to come up with a passing strategy and avoid being passed yourself?

So from day 1, safety and situational awareness is high priority. You don't move up (or you're at least not supposed to) if you're using 100% of your brain to keep the car on the track. And not only is it good for HPDEing, but it's assumed some of these guys might want to race, so it's best to develop it from the get go. And it's a nice skill for the street too! So why wouldn't a bike guy in a school want to do the same? Build good habits from the start? If 150MPH is overwhelming, then I'd say slow the hell down! Right? No? I can't imagine it matters what you're tracking-- car, bike, horse, snowmobile, you don't add speed until you have brain left over to handle it. You don't just ignore everything else and go balls out, you'll just end up proving to yourself that yup, tracking a bike WAS dangerous. I hate this wheelchair. Tracking a bike or car is dangerous, but aren't you interested in making it less so?

I guess the lesson is, that's just the way a lot of bike schools are, and I should avoid them. I'm leaning more towards buying a Blast until it bores me, I can push it 100% on track and still do some amatuer birdwatching.

[Apoc]

So from day 1, safety and situational awareness is high priority. You don't move up (or you're at least not supposed to) if you're using 100% of your brain to keep the car on the track. And not only is it good for HPDEing, but it's assumed some of these guys might want to race, so it's best to develop it from the get go. And it's a nice skill for the street too! So why wouldn't a bike guy in a school want to do the same? Build good habits from the start? If 150MPH is overwhelming, then I'd say slow the hell down! Right? No? I can't imagine it matters what you're tracking-- car, bike, horse, snowmobile, you don't add speed until you have brain left over to handle it. You don't just ignore everything else and go balls out, you'll just end up proving to yourself that yup, tracking a bike WAS dangerous. I hate this wheelchair. Tracking a bike or car is dangerous, but aren't you interested in making it less so?

hear hear!

P.S. - Buy an SV(S).

[stevegula]

he's using developed peripheral vision to stay aware of other riders, and I DO see them take a glance back now and then.

Ok, honestly, I don't get why you're so fascinated with being able to look behind you on a motorcycle at the track. If there's a bike there, you can hear it. That's all that matters. If you hear another bike, ride a defensive line (if you're racing), if you don't, keep truckin it. Seems pretty simple to me. I mean, if you're so worried about safety, why aren't you paying attention to where you're going instead of where you've been?

The most often given reason for looking over ones shoulder is confusion, and typically we only do it coming out of turns. It's usually because we *thought* someone was there and for whatever reason he no longer is or vice versa. Like at Barber this last year Spies spent 3 laps looking behind him wondering where the hell Mladin was. One second he was on his arse, the next he was nowhere to be found. Or GP @ Seca last year, Edwards thought he had misread his timing board and looked back to see if Rossi was really on his butt. Obviously, the guys want to know if someone is behind them or not so they look around occassionally, but between the timing board and their ears that's usually enough to clue them in.

But hell, I could care how ride. If you'd rather go into turn 1 at VIR North or Summit looking behind you, by all means go for it. I'd be impressed with your talent.

[Evan]

the most important time to know what is going on behind you is under braking (also when engines are the quietest) so that you dont turn in on someone, block a faster class, know how to defend etc.

If you cant look in a mirror and brake at the same time, its time to take up golf. Same goes for those "distracting" brake lights.