Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!)

[WRXtranceformed]

My friend brought up a point I don't know how to combat. I'm not experienced like you guys I don't know where to begin to decipher all this information and what to trust but he said something that made sense to me. Maybe one of you guys have a counter argument "who cares what they actually believe, what matters is whether or not a politician hears what the people want and give them what they want, I don't care if Hillary scalds her own children for being gay but she sure as hell isn't gonna let the government scorn my kids for being gay, black, immigrant, Hispanic, old, poor, Christian, Muslim, Hindu you get the idea"

Also, I suppose I don't fall into the category of having my mind made up but I'm learning alot. So keep going. I don't know how you guys even know where to begin with the amount of information that is out there, I'm definitely benefiting.

You can respond that the desire for or action toward inclusivity and tolerance within reason are important traits for any normal human being, but a good world leader they do not necessarily make. We aren't perfect but remember that the US is already one of the most tolerant and freedom-giving countries in the world toward religious, ethnic and sexual minorities.

We can put some hypothetical examples around this if you want but that's as simple of a response as you need.

[BLINGMW]

who cares what they actually believe, what matters is whether or not a politician hears what the people want and give them what they want.

I'll go ahead and side with your friend on this one. If the politician makes promises I support and then actually delivers on those promises, I don't much care what they actually believe. Figuring out their actual beliefs is totaly unrealistic and likely not helpful.

[Jake]

who cares what they actually believe, what matters is whether or not a politician hears what the people want and give them what they want.

I'll go ahead and side with your friend on this one. If the politician makes promises I support and then actually delivers on those promises, I don't much care what they actually believe. Figuring out their actual beliefs is totaly unrealistic and likely not helpful.

+Juan.

[CaptainHenreh]

who cares what they actually believe, what matters is whether or not a politician hears what the people want and give them what they want.

I'll go ahead and side with your friend on this one. If the politician makes promises I support and then actually delivers on those promises, I don't much care what they actually believe. Figuring out their actual beliefs is totaly unrealistic and likely not helpful.

Absolutely this. I don't give a hoot what a politician thinks. Or believes. Or does outside the political sphere. I care how they're going to use the political power I've consented to give them. Bill Clinton's oval office dalliances, for example, were unseemly but ultimately unimportant. Having a woman shot by a sniper while she held her baby was much more offensive to me, when I was a wee lad.

I don't much care about what someone says, but rather who they've shown to be when given an ounce of power.

[CaptainHenreh]

Also, I thought this was interesting, even if Michael Moore is a fuckhead:

...biggest problem here isn’t Trump – it’s Hillary. She is hugely unpopular — nearly 70% of all voters think she is untrustworthy and dishonest. She represents the old way of politics, not really believing in anything other than what can get you elected. That’s why she fights against gays getting married one moment, and the next she’s officiating a gay marriage. Young women are among her biggest detractors, which has to hurt considering it’s the sacrifices and the battles that Hillary and other women of her generation endured so that this younger generation would never have to be told by the Barbara Bushes of the world that they should just shut up and go bake some cookies. But the kids don’t like her, and not a day goes by that a millennial doesn’t tell me they aren’t voting for her. No Democrat, and certainly no independent, is waking up on November 8th excited to run out and vote for Hillary the way they did the day Obama became president or when Bernie was on the primary ballot. The enthusiasm just isn’t there. And because this election is going to come down to just one thing — who drags the most people out of the house and gets them to the polls — Trump right now is in the catbird seat.

[G.Irish]

Eh I would say a politician's beliefs are not totally unimportant. I totally agree that someone can privately feel a certain way about something, but legislate in a way that is consistent with the law/Constitution/constituents' will. That's often the situation you get into with religion and politics. Someone's religion may prescribe one position, but as a elected official they do what comports with the Constitution.

However, in our representative government, politicians are tasked with making decisions on behalf of their constituents. The will of the people is usually not a clear cut thing in a lot of things anyway. 'The people' tend to have a number of positions on any given issue. So one has to rely on a politician to make a choice that is the best balance of what is right, what is the (reasonable) will of the people, and what is most likely to get passed. In that case, what a politician's views and beliefs are, definitely influence what course of action that person will take.

If someone says, 'I don't believe women should be in the workplace and women's suffrage has ruined America', would I trust them to protect women's rights? Probably not. If they had a record of supporting women's rights because that's what the public wants or because it would be political suicide, maybe. But even then, that means that if the political winds shifted a little bit they decide to actively oppose women's rights.

If someone tells me they have a certain position on something, there has to be a pretty compelling and ironclad reason to trust them to take action that is in conflict with that position. So if someone says, my religion doesn't support gay marriage, but I do not believe the government should ever discriminate against someone based on their sexual orientation, ok, maybe I can live with that. But if someone says, 'I hate gay people but I guess it's not politically correct to oppose gay marriage,' then it's harder to trust that person with power.

Politicians' positions shift all of the time to pander to voters. But certain positions and beliefs are harder to accept than others.

[WRXtranceformed]

I would be really curious to hear how some of you all would react if your CEO enacted more inclusive policies at your company but then got caught on tape dropping the n-bomb about an employee or saying something derogatory about gays. Or, to be more relevant / current, if a tape came out with him / her saying those things a few years ago. Would you want them to keep their job? If it was an incoming CEO and you heard about this, would you want them leading your company if they promised they had changed?

[jbails39]

I'll bite.
To keep it short and sweet:

I've been Trump since last October, voted Trump already in Absentee. In the Republican Primaries he demolished the other candidates, and absolutely humiliated Jeb! Bush, which I thoroughly enjoyed to the greatest extent possible. It was obvious that Hillary was going to trounce Bernie in the Democratic Primary after the first few states, and since socialism makes me mad(fight me), no tears were shed.

The third party candidates are all far wackier and scarier than Trump, and that's all I have to say about that. It would be good if there were other options besides what is basically a 1 party establishment system, but again, no feasible, mass-appealing candidates ever succeed in the third party.

I agree with many of Trump's positions, I tend to lean strongly right on most things except certain social or judicial issues, but my disagreements with him don't dissuade my vote. At the end of the day, I vote on base issues, those being: Economics, Immigration, and Defense. His less desirable qualities also don't bother me enough to sway my vote; at least he seems human.

I have a serious problem with the Clintons, namely their stranglehold on seriously dangerous levels of power and influence. Hillary's "experience" is laughably bad, just look at her stint as Secretary of State, or any number of the scandals revolving around her and her husband. It's also interesting to pose the question of how they got so wealthy so fast, being that neither of them has ever run a business? I can keep going on, but its nothing you haven't heard Trump say already.

It has been a really fun election to watch, and it has really gotten me engaged in the political process. People keep saying that it reflects poorly on the process, but I would counter that the level of coverage has really forced every American to take at least be somewhat informed on the candidates.

[rherold9]

It has been a really fun election to watch, and it has really gotten me engaged in the political process. People keep saying that it reflects poorly on the process, but I would counter that the level of coverage has really forced every American to take at least be somewhat informed on the candidates.

Serious question here. What other news sources do you use besides Fox?

Also, what about his policies do you support or like?

Just asking because in my opinion most of his policies and talk are very laughable and would lead the country to greater injustices/worse economy.

Lastly, how does one's qualities not sway you away from them? You are just voting for him because he is running as a Republican? That doesn't make sense one bit but I guess that's what most of America does and why the political system is fucked, imo. Guys let's not vote because of the policies, qualities of the person, etc... but let's vote because they are a democrat or republican. Just doesn't make sense to me. If people didn't vote like this the US's political system would be so much better as it would require people to actually research the candidate and actually know things.

[G.Irish]

Serious question here. What other news sources do you use besides Fox?

Also, what about his policies do you support or like?

Just asking because in my opinion most of his policies and talk are very laughable and would lead the country to greater injustices/worse economy.

Lastly, how does one's qualities not sway you away from them? You are just voting for him because he is running as a Republican? That doesn't make sense one bit but I guess that's what most of America does and why the political system is fucked, imo. Guys let's not vote because of the policies, qualities of the person, etc... but let's vote because they are a democrat or republican. Just doesn't make sense to me. If people didn't vote like this the US's political system would be so much better as it would require people to actually research the candidate and actually know things.

Easy there tiger, he was nice enough to share his opinion and didn't criticize anyone else for there's.

Voting for someone because they're from your party is indeed how a lot of craziness has crept into our government. But a lot of the time you vote for the party that most closely aligns with your interests. If someone wants lower taxes, less social spending, strong 2nd amendment support, and high military spending, the GOP would be the party for them. Now, in the case of Trump you'd have to overlook a great number of flaws in that candidate, but some people prefer him to voting for the other flawed candidate whose positions clash with some core things they care about.

[HAULN-SS]

Also, what about his policies do you support or like?

In no particular order:

Lessening regulation imposed by un-elected types (EPA, Dept of Interior, etc)
Assimilation based immigration policy (stop with this bullshit about him banning 100% of any X group)
Freedom of school choice (charter schools, etc..mostly to get inner city kids out of shitty schools)
He supports term limits (legistlative for sure..hopefully the courts, but not sure off top of my head)
Simplification of Tax code (we spend billions as a country preparing taxes)
Lowering the repatriation tax
Lowering taxes for the middle class
Reinforcement of a military depleted by 15 years of war
Pro-life..His defense of that position at the 3rd debate was about as straightforward as I've heard any republican say in modern times, especially those already in office
Supreme court picks that he's already published were mostly supportable, thought I didn't dig into it too much
Specifically defends 2nd ammendment
Not a Clinton, Bush, or Obama


There are some areas where I don't agree with the guy. He is not eloquent. He has a flair for the dramatic, his tariff policies are backwards, and his temperament are a little off. There's probably more, but the list above far outweighs these things.

[rherold9]

Easy there tiger, he was nice enough to share his opinion and didn't criticize anyone else for there's.

There was no criticism intended there

Lessening regulation imposed by un-elected types (EPA, Dept of Interior, etc)
Assimilation based immigration policy (stop with this bullshit about him banning 100% of any X group)
Simplification of Tax code (we spend billions as a country preparing taxes)
Lowering taxes for the middle class
Reinforcement of a military depleted by 15 years of war
Pro-life..His defense of that position at the 3rd debate was about as straightforward as I've heard any republican say in modern times, especially those already in office

Thank you for actual reasonable post.

Where I disagree is the points I've highlighted.

De-regulation of the EPA? Why? Is global warming not a thing in your mind? Although I do agree the EPA can be quite harsh and policies absurd there should be regulation on some environmental changes to renewables, etc...

Are you informed on illegal immigrants and how they benefit the US? They usually pay taxes now-a-days and don't get just everything for free like everyone believes. Or are you referring to "Muslim" immigrants?

Taxes, How else does he plan on increasing military spending when it is already high and he plans on cutting taxes? Several billion missing in tax revenue with the biggest tax cuts for the millionaires/billionaires. Cut the “social programs” you say? Okay. You’ll still have to pay in a free market for things that you were paying for with taxes. It all equals out. At least in theory.

Why, also reinforce the military? Why stick our nose in all of the foreign issues? We should increase assistance programs for them since they are having issues adapting back to society instead of building military back.

Pro life? Why? Shouldn't we raise awareness on contraception and pregnancy prevention over forcing a woman to have baby if they aren't educated? All that does is increase costs of the general population especially the lower educated people and poorer people who don't have the same access to birth control and education as others do. Will the be an exception for women who have a forced pregnancy?

[Ken]

Also, what about his policies do you support or like?

In no particular order:

Lessening regulation imposed by un-elected types (EPA, Dept of Interior, etc)
Assimilation based immigration policy (stop with this bullshit about him banning 100% of any X group)
Freedom of school choice (charter schools, etc..mostly to get inner city kids out of shitty schools)
He supports term limits (legistlative for sure..hopefully the courts, but not sure off top of my head)
Simplification of Tax code (we spend billions as a country preparing taxes)
Lowering the repatriation tax
Lowering taxes for the middle class
Reinforcement of a military depleted by 15 years of war
Pro-life..His defense of that position at the 3rd debate was about as straightforward as I've heard any republican say in modern times, especially those already in office
Supreme court picks that he's already published were mostly supportable, thought I didn't dig into it too much
Specifically defends 2nd ammendment
Not a Clinton, Bush, or Obama


There are some areas where I don't agree with the guy. He is not eloquent. He has a flair for the dramatic, his tariff policies are backwards, and his temperament are a little off. There's probably more, but the list above far outweighs these things.

Lessening of what regulation? Or is that just another generic Trump guarantee? Those departments, specifically EPA, do a lot of good unless you're a believer that climate change is not real.

What the shit is assimilation based immigration? Like, you'll try and guarantee that immigrants assimilate to "American Culture," if so, what the hell is, "American Culture"?

"stop with this bullshit about him banning 100% of any X group" ummm...

"Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on." https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-relea...mmigration Press release from his website. Even if he is calling for, "extreme vetting" now, that is just window dressing. If that press release is still on his website, you better believe that's his actual position.

In no way would charter schools help, especially in the "inner cities" you mention. These schools have a hard enough time getting funding, and you want to split that out even more?

Term limits - Cool, agree there. Good luck getting that to pass though, don't care who you are.

Simplification of tax code - I mean, okay? Going to be pain in the ass no matter how you break it down - not like it's ever going to be a straight forward you only owe us x%. There are far too many different circumstances for that to ever be a reality.

Lowering the repatriation tax - This is not even proven to do anything positive for the economy. Not like they are forced to use the money to make new hires.

Lowering taxes for the middle class - As i stated earlier, after analysis his plan would, at best, save a marginal amount to current. While lowering taxes for rich and awaiting the much heralded but seldom seen, "trickle down."

Reinforcement of a military depleted by 15 years of war - We spend an obnoxious amount of money on military. We don't need to spend less and we certainly don't need to spend more. We need to spend it wisely (i.e. not trying to simultaneously designed and build large projects such as ships, plans etc.)

The last few you mentioned are purely personal/religious preferences. Some people are convinced that the government are going to come for their guns if they register them, some aren't.

[ViPER1313]

Trumps defense of pro life stance at the 3rd debate... was complete BS. No doctor in the country will perform an abortion days before full term... but let's not let facts get in the way. I'm not arguing the issue, the morality, or how you should feel about it... but I am arguing that his "defense" was bullshit.

[G.Irish]

Trumps defense of pro life stance at the 3rd debate... was complete BS. No doctor in the country will perform an abortion days before full term... but let's not let facts get in the way. I'm not arguing the issue, the morality, or how you should feel about it... but I am arguing that his "defense" was bullshit.

Yeah who knows what he was talking about there. Maybe he was confusing abortion with a c-section :dunno:

[ScottyB]

i hold any politician's promise of bolstering something as incredibly expensive as the military while also enacting middle class tax cuts in dubious regard. the money to pay for that ain't comin from a crowd like his manhattan country club buddies, and the poor aren't going to fund it either.

taking money away from the middle class is one of the fastest ways to kill the economy since they're the largest goods-purchasing engine in the country.

[CaptainHenreh]

Why, also reinforce the military? Why stick our nose in all of the foreign issues? We should increase assistance programs for them since they are having issues adapting back to society instead of building military back.

Just as an aside, HRC is just as Hawkish as Le Donalde, as far as I can see. And as far as assistance programs for ex military...isn't that what Lockheed Martin is?

[Ryan T]

I'll vote for Trump, because I dislike him less than I dislike Hillary.

[ViPER1313]

Just as an aside, HRC is just as Hawkish as Le Donalde, as far as I can see. And as far as assistance programs for ex military...isn't that what Lockheed Martin is?

Truth...

[rherold9]

Why, also reinforce the military? Why stick our nose in all of the foreign issues? We should increase assistance programs for them since they are having issues adapting back to society instead of building military back.

Just as an aside, HRC is just as Hawkish as Le Donalde, as far as I can see. And as far as assistance programs for ex military...isn't that what Lockheed Martin is?

Define hawkish

Sure, there are programs but they aren't well budgeted and/or aren't doing a great amount for soldiers coming back from war with PTSD and other mental/physical problems. At least from what I've seen.