Repubs and evolution

[.RJ]

Someone's got to try :?

Sure... and I think we're also making generalizations about party lines here, that not all people that associate themselves with a certain party adhere to.

[JackoliciousLegs]

Agreed... sort of. I can't help but feel like the thousands of people that I saw at Cru at JMU weren't voting republican because of religious beliefs.

[HAULN-SS]

I can't help but feel like the thousands of people that I saw at Cru at JMU weren't voting republican because of religious beliefs.

So, you're not allowed to hold a personal belief that may not benefit the country? What's wrong with having a belief, but voting for the greater good? (as they may see it, that is)

[JackoliciousLegs]

I can't help but feel like the thousands of people that I saw at Cru at JMU weren't voting republican because of religious beliefs.

So, you're not allowed to hold a personal belief that may not benefit the country? What's wrong with having a belief, but voting for the greater good? (as they may see it, that is)

You're going to have to go into more detail with that one. Of course you can hold a personal belief that won't benefit the country.

[HAULN-SS]

no time to post right now, just read something into it, and we'll settle it like men later...i actually have work to do today ;\

[Maengelito]

jack, i think you're making broad generalizations about repubs and nitpicking with dems. RJ and andrew are saying that people will be retarded whether or not they're right or left leaning. not every republican is a god loving creationism embracing rich snooty CEO and not every dem is some dirty hippie homosexual from california. you cant create a thread saying "omg you're republican, why don't you believe in evolution?!?!" expecting all the right wingers here to actually not believe in evolution

[Evan]

I really dont want waste time getting sucked down into Jacks republican hate-fest, but Ill make some comments for the time being.
I am dissapointed in you Jack, I guess I just expected you to read something beyond the attention-whore headlines and pretty graphs, but it sounds like you were using this as an anti-republican springboard anyway. As RJ already mentioned, it doesnt take more than a glance at the actual data to see this isnt an issue limited to republicans.
In terms of the evolution issue itself, anyone paying attention to the issue knows that it is not a 2 (or 3) option issue like the Gallup polls try to portray. There are 5 clearly distinguishable schools of thought on it.
1. Atheistic evolution, in which the earth is 4.5 billion years old, man evolved over millions of years and God played no part in it.

2.Theistic evolution, in which the earth is 4.5 billion years old, man evolved over millions of years and God had a hand in it.

3. Intelligent Design, in which the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the development of species over time are the results of the design of an intelligent agent, which may or may not be God.

4. Old Earth Creationism, in which the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and man was created fully formed by God within the last 50,000 years.

5. Young Earth Creationism, in which God created the universe, the earth, and man in one week 6,000 years ago.


the questions on the gallup poll are phrased in black and white such that theistic evolutionists and IDers will choose the young earth creationism option, and perhaps more importantly, the questions are phrased such that believing in creationism is directly tied to believing in God, such that pollees would be much more likely to respond to believing in God rather than the evolution issue. poll manipulation at its finest. no better way to paint republicans (and in a nice sly fashion christians) as neanderthals than bring up the who-gives-a-shit evolution non-issue and paint them into a corner with misleading questions. A full 25% of the respondents answered that they believe both is true! There isnt any better indicator of poor poll questions.
Not surprisingly, polls done by Pew Research which makes a point to dissasociate the evolution issue with believing in God, shows a much higher acceptance rate of evolution.
Gallup has come under heavy fire for years for biased polls, and this is no different.

personally Im somewhere between 2 and 3. (along with every other christian/republican that I have every talked with)
Here is an interesting quote from one of the worlds best known Athiests and world experts on Evolution, and author of Darwinian Evolution, Anthony Flew at a Scientific Symposium about a year ago
"What I think the DNA material has done is show that intelligence must have been involved in getting these extraordinarily diverse elements together. The enormous complexity by which the results were achieved look to me like the work of intelligence."
Flew told AP in an interview that his current ideas had some similarity with those of U.S. "intelligent design" theorists, who believe the complexity of life points to an intelligent source of life, rather than the random and natural processes posited by Charles Darwin's theory of evolution.
There have been plenty of other books and research published poking holes in the pure Darwinian so maybe Jack you can fill me in on the 'facts' ?


and save the cute pictures jack, while Im sure they get you all fired up they dont mean a damn thing. For every 1 picture of 'evil republicans' (who probably arent even republicans) you come up with, I can find 1000 '9/11 was an inside job' pictures.
And its interesting that you bring up homosexual marraige/military etc, as the liberal 'natural' view of homosexuality directly clashes with evolution. speaking of picking and choosing....

[.RJ]

The great white hateÔäó is back :thumbup:

[Evan]

dammit no Im not.

[CaptainHenreh]

jack, i think you're making broad generalizations about repubs and nitpicking with dems. RJ and andrew are saying that people will be retarded whether or not they're right or left leaning. not every republican is a god loving creationism embracing rich snooty CEO and not every dem is some dirty hippie homosexual from california. you cant create a thread saying "omg you're republican, why don't you believe in evolution?!?!" expecting all the right wingers here to actually not believe in evolution

These results show that:

* 24% of Americans believe that both the theory of evolution and the theory of creationism are probably or definitely true
* 41% believe that creationism is true, and that evolution is false
* 28% believe that evolution is true, but that creationism is false
* 3% either believe that both are false or have no opinion about at least one of the theories

Without further research, it's not possible to determine the exact thinking process of those who agreed that both the theory of evolution and creationism are true. It may be, however, that some respondents were seeking a way to express their views that evolution may have been initiated by or guided by God, and told the interviewer that they agreed with both evolution and creationism in an effort to express this more complex attitude.

I think you're missing something important here, Jack. Many people try to make peace with science and religion in their own lives, and the question asked was if they "Personally" believed in evolution, which implies some religious context. Clearly (by the "Contradictory" responses) Many people saw this question as a "Do you believe in God or Evolution" question, and answered appropriately and yes those people in all likelihood associate themselves with "conservative" values and Republicans.

I don't see why this is a problem for you, though.


edit: Damn it, that's what I get for not Previewing. The Great White Hate said it much better than I could have.

[Maengelito]

i think i say it best when i say "who the fuck is 'evan'?"

[.RJ]

"who the fuck is 'evan'?"

:dunno:

His sister is hot though!

[KPWSerpiente]

And its interesting that you bring up homosexual marraige/military etc, as the liberal 'natural' view of homosexuality directly clashes with evolution. speaking of picking and choosing....

No it doesn't.

-T

[JackoliciousLegs]

I really dont want waste time getting sucked down into Jacks republican hate-fest, but Ill make some comments for the time being.

No hating here. You guys are great. I love MM and I respect everyone here's opinion. It's my connection to a more conservative audience. I haven't found one person in Chicago that's an evangelical christian. I'm sure they exist, but they are far fewer here...

There are 5 clearly distinguishable schools of thought on it.

Cool... see this is what I wanted out of this. Really picking apart the poll.

A full 25% of the respondents answered that they believe both is true! There isnt any better indicator of poor poll questions.

More of what I wanted.

personally Im somewhere between 2 and 3. (along with every other christian/republican that I have every talked with)

I've been talking to some really different christians I guess. Every person that I spoke to from Cru was not in the evolution camp.

Here is an interesting quote from one of the worlds best known Athiests and world experts on Evolution, and author of Darwinian Evolution, Anthony Flew at a Scientific Symposium about a year ago
"What I think the DNA material has done is show that intelligence must have been involved in getting these extraordinarily diverse elements together. The enormous complexity by which the results were achieved look to me like the work of intelligence."
Flew told AP in an interview that his current ideas had some similarity with those of U.S. "intelligent design" theorists, who believe the complexity of life points to an intelligent source of life, rather than the random and natural processes posited by Charles Darwin's theory of evolution.

Dawkins goes over this: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AlUG3JqFHo">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AlUG3JqFHo</a><!-- m -->
Flew is no longer an Atheist.

There have been plenty of other books and research published poking holes in the pure Darwinian so maybe Jack you can fill me in on the 'facts'?

I see stuff about evolution in Time and Newsweek regularly... I've read stuff by Dawkins and Sam Harris... I've listened to scholarly debates on the History Channel. Read articles in papers. I really don't know how to answer that. There are always people that are mystified...

and save the cute pictures jack, while Im sure they get you all fired up they dont mean a damn thing. For every 1 picture of 'evil republicans' (who probably arent even republicans) you come up with, I can find 1000 '9/11 was an inside job' pictures.

Don't be silly. The 'cute' pictures of the creation museum were relevant. So were the pics of the God Hates Fags church. The inside job stuff is a conspiracy theory among a tiny TINY minority of people. Evangelical christians are regularly told to vote with the bible in mind hindering scientific progress and promoting sexual innequality... among other things.

And its interesting that you bring up homosexual marraige/military etc, as the liberal 'natural' view of homosexuality directly clashes with evolution. speaking of picking and choosing....

wow. I'm just going to leave this one alone.

[CaptainHenreh]

Don't be silly. The 'cute' pictures of the creation museum were relevant. So were the pics of the God Hates Fags church. The inside job stuff is a conspiracy theory among a tiny TINY minority of people....

And Westboro Baptist Church is, I guess, a Large, LARGE MAJORITY of people?

C'mon Jack, now who's being silly?

[Goodspeed]

Eh, I think the point to be made here is we all have our personal views on religion, and we all have our personal views on politics, but the overwhelming important fact is that religion and politics should never be joined, and should always be kept seperate. I agree with "who cares if presidential candidate x believes/does not believe in evolution?" Because it doesn't matter. At least, it doesn't matter so long as that person keeps their personal beliefs out of their job and out of government.

For example, look at Kansas, where intelligent design reigns supreme in public schools and they have had book burnings over evolution. That is religion mixing with government. I'm sure there are people in Kansas that aren't Christian/who believe in evolution. Is that then not oppression? And don't say oh they could just move states, because free Americans shouldn't have to.

[JackoliciousLegs]

Don't be silly. The 'cute' pictures of the creation museum were relevant. So were the pics of the God Hates Fags church. The inside job stuff is a conspiracy theory among a tiny TINY minority of people....

And Westboro Baptist Church is, I guess, a Large, LARGE MAJORITY of people? C'mon Jack, now who's being silly?

Hah! Hey, wait a second. Re-read everything. I used the WBC to show a group that agreed with the bible wholeheartedly that I *COULD NOT* argue with since they actually DO follow the word of the bible. I would just hope they'd keep it out of politics... which they don't. I never implied that they were a majority or that they represented the majority of repubs. Evan brought up the 911 conspiracy folks as a blatant jab at liberals. It had nothing to do with any argument other than my "cute pictures" of the creation museum (relevant to evolution and why some people still don't believe it) and of a group of conservatives that really do live the way the bible tells them to. At least they are being consistent.

You may think that my use of the WBC may be a little out there, but consider the idea that maybe, picking and choosing isn't ok. It's fine to keep family gatherings around and telling nice stories, but when it's represented as fact and we get into the my god is better argument, it just becomes ludicrous. At least the WBC and extremist muslims are consistent. They believe the word of their text and follow it. You deal with these people in a *certain* way. More frightening to me are the people that don't believe or follow everything. They pick and choose and make their own brand of religion up. One is focused on "family values" meaning discriminating against homosexuality. One is focused on "traditional values" meaning promoting women being in more house and home type roles. Etc. I'm just saying, when a group consciously picks to discriminate rather than be told by God's word to discrimate, it scares me even more. Groups that decide that a zygote is its own person with its own soul and can't be "harmed" and veiling it under the "word of god" scare me. Those are the same types of people that chose to discriminate against blacks. They still do. They discriminate against gays. They're opposed to sexual equality. And why? Because they feel like it for no justifiable reason. We can't sit down with people like that ask them to a logical debate. The more we do that, the more they recluse into a cave of "the bible tells me so" or even worse.. "it's just wrong".

So, if you don't understand, I'm sorry. I'm just puking this all out. I'm just saying that I fear a hindrance to logical discourse by religious ideals and dogma that have been hand picked by people as ultimate truth.

PS... don't get me wrong, the WBC scares me too.

[ScottyB]

whoa Jack...you're starting off down a whole different path here buddy!

people like easy answers to hard questions. the issue you're getting at is, IMO, a problem with people being ignorant in their research, and interpretations of their faith (in this case, christianity). it all comes down to how someone wants to see something if they're given enough agreement, no matter how out of line it is with the core values of that which they believe in.

[Apoc]

jack, i think you're making broad generalizations about repubs and nitpicking with dems. RJ and andrew are saying that people will be retarded whether or not they're right or left leaning. not every republican is a god loving creationism embracing rich snooty CEO and not every dem is some dirty hippie homosexual from california.

Correlation does not imply causation. I think that pretty much sums it up.

I think it's disturbing that ~50% of those polled don't believe in evolution, regardless of affiliation.

[Ginger]

Correlation does not imply causation. I think that pretty much sums it up.

I think it's disturbing that ~50% of those polled don't believe in evolution, regardless of affiliation.

Bu if you polled out front of a church or an elementary school would you be surprised at the results?